Dogs are too forgiving

lostcoyote

triggering memories is not the same thing as dwelling on the past or holding a grudge.....

Isn't it?  Holding a grudge is keeping a specific memory and responding to that memory when it's triggered.  I'm not saying that dogs are spiteful, because I don't believe that they are.  But I believe that certain dogs, in order to ensure their survival, don't have that neotenic quality of "forgiveness."

Xerxes: Holding a grudge is keeping a specific memory and responding to that memory when it's triggered.

holding a grudge certainly requires keeping a memory. holding a grudge also requires ill will towrds something and not only that, holding a grudge also entails planning ahead things like getting even or plotting against or just flat out resentment & projecting that resentment, ill will, and plotting against when one is around friends or just consciously thinking of ways t o"one-up" the other guy. holding a grudge often holds the quality of jealousy. grudges also have the tendency to "ferment" over time - to get stronger and built up into flat out hatred towards "the other guy"

from websters dictionary:

grudge

-noun

1. a feeling of ill will or resentment: to hold a grudge against a former opponent.

let me ask you this: during the 6 year absense of that friend who used to tease the akita.... was the akita feeling active resentment towards that guy.... by active resentment, i mean, thinking about that guy in such a way to "map out" a plan to take revenge on that guy on a daily basis? on a day to day basis, was the akita feeling bitterness towards that freind? or was it just living it's daily life.... having one day, that guy show up to cause those memories to resurface, from which, the dog only responded to those memories.

if i were to take your example and apply it (keeping a memory and responding to the memory when it is triggered) i could come up with a huge assortment of things that are not grudges. for example, i can think back on this memory i has while i was camping at marion lake. if someone comes along and asks me about marion lake, the memories will resurface and i may respond with joyful stories about the time i spent there. clearly, this is not a grudge.

i also think that humans have a powerful capacity to project anthromorphism onto just about any other life form.

-just my 2 centavos

I see your point in whether or not dogs hold grudges like humans do. But if we are going to use human examples I am reminded of a slogan from a motorcycle club. God forgives, the brotherhood doesn't. And my friend, Lee, lived by that code, though he was not a member. In fact, in his riding days, he was independent, though he was friends with a body guard for Sonny Barger. With him, burn him once and there is no second time. Mostly, that meant that he would have nothing more to do with you. Unless it involved harm to his family in which case, this might be your last sunset.

I doubt the Akita that Ed had actively spent every minute plotting revenge, as you might define for a grudge, human-style. But obviously he had a lasting impression of the guy that became an instantly classical "seek and destroy" any time he saw the guy.

I think everybody here and i mean 100% of the posters agreed that dogs do NOT forget, but this post is about forgiving

And yes dogs are forgiving, BUT i can not kick a dog and expect him to trust me back right away, i can not kick a dog, go away for 6 years and come back expecting him to be nice to me

I could kick a dog, go away for 10 years and come back, but if i show the dog that "i have changed" that i'm not a "kicking dogs" type of person anymore then the dog definitely is going to forgive me, not right away because they are not stupid either, they dont know if i suddenly will do it again, BUT once i gain his trust back then the dog definitely will not forget what happened but forgave me for what i did  to him, regardless of the breed

The key question is: How long a dog will take to trust you back? well that depends on what you did and depends on the breed but they all will always do at the end if you really work on it

And no, i can not kick a dog, gain his trust back, kick him again and expect him to be so naive to once again trust me back 

lostcoyote

let me ask you this: during the 6 year absense of that friend who used to tease the akita.... was the akita feeling active resentment towards that guy.... by active resentment, i mean, thinking about that guy in such a way to "map out" a plan to take revenge on that guy on a daily basis?

Probably not.  And it wasn't a pattern of teasing...it happened once.

lostcoyote

ill will, and plotting against when one is around friends or just consciously thinking of ways t o"one-up" the other guy.

 I've seen the above in my dog.  Let me explain:  Xerxes grew up at a dog park across the street from me.  He was friendly with all the regulars and they all knew him.  A new dog appeared (Lucky) and was agressive with Xerxes on three different occasions.  No blood was drawn.  But on the 4th occasion that we saw this dog, Xerxes laid low, wrestling with one of his buddies.  He had already seen "Lucky" and knew he was inside the dog park, but he didn't go up to "Lucky" to just start something.  Xerxes kept wrestling with his buddy "Gus."  Across the park was Xerk's buddy "Joe" (Boxer/Pittie) and "Joe" was just laying under the park bench taking it easy. 

"Lucky" in the course of his time in the park, strayed into a position in which he was directly between Joe and Xerxes.  Xerxes made eye contact with Joe and both of them charged Lucky at the same time.  A fracas ensued, with Lucky at the bottom of the pile.  As far as I know, no blood was drawn again.

This "attack" required several stages of active planning.  It required Xerxes to wait until the proper moment to strike when Lucky wasn't even expecting such action, striking with overwhelming force, coordinating with another dog, and duping me into thinking Xerxes wasn't capable of such action. 

That was when and how I learned that this particular breed can and does think several steps ahead.

Most breeds of dog probably don't have that ability to plan successive steps, or to coordinate aggressive actions in such a manner.

To answer the questions about Xerxes and the dog park now....we don't go anymore.  That action was the beginning of the end.  Xerxes does much better in playgroups of 3 or less dogs. 
 

 I think we should all listen to Ed because he has scary smart dogs. I wouldn't put plotting and grudges past my mother's Vallhund, Pyry. Only Pyry is a laid back little guy and mostly can't be bothered with things like that. Phew!

Spence, I accidentally kicked my dog in the jaw really hard, once. She crept up behind me when I was trying to get a suitcase out of a high cupboard and when I jumped up to grab it my heel smacked her in the jaw. She didn't yelp, but she backed away from me wincing and moving her head around in the exact same way people move parts of their body around when they hurt like blazes. It was a good minute before it looked like the pain was under control. I think if it was someone she didn't know, she would be very wary of them, but because it was me, she had already forgiven me by the time I'd got down to her level to make sure she was okay and give her an apologetic cuddle. I think it would take a lot of kicks from me to turn her away, but she'd turn eventually, yes. Pyry on the other hand, he'd turn away much quicker. He doesn't care so much. 

 I don't think dogs are "too" forgiving at all. I think we project that response (emotion) onto our dogs because as humans we have this great need to be forgiven. When it comes to day to day missteps like accidently tripping over our dog, not taking them for their daily walk or even an over reaction to an unwanted behaviour (chewed slipper), I think we as humans tend to feel guilty and seek their forgiveness for our own needs. I know in such circumstances I will get down, give my dog a big hug and apologise to him. He in return will give me a big wet lick. Is he forgiving me? No. He is responding to my actions. I am interpreting it as an act of forgiveness for my own emotional needs. In the case of more severe actions like hitting, kicking or scaring a dog, dogs may not offer that wet lick as readily. Is it because they have decided not to forgive you? Personally I think dogs are able to move forward, become fearful, lose trust etc. but I'm not convinced they have the capacity to understand, let alone offer forgiveness.

 As I said before, I was using the word in the sense that an inanimate object can be forgiving or unforgiving. As in, snow is more forgiving than sharp rocks (just).

But maybe the word I should have used is accepting. I don't think dogs really 'forgive' so much as accept. In comparison to any other animal I've ever worked with, dogs are expected to put up with a lot of things we wouldn't expect from any other animal, even something like a cat. It occurred to me at some point that I often take it for granted that my dog will accept whatever I do to her regardless of how much she might dislike it. That's not to say I am cruel to her or anything, but why should I expect her to put up with being man-handled or being held to strict rules that go strongly against her grain when I don't expect that from my other animals that don't accept everything I do to them? Just because a dog will accept it, does it mean we should expect them to?  

corvus

I don't expect that from my other animals that don't accept everything I do to them? Just because a dog will accept it, does it mean we should expect them to

I think that goes back to man and dog being symbiotic species, in my layperson's opinion. Perhaps it has to do with the damage, perceived and real, that can be accomplished by the different animals. Do cats and rabbits or hares present the same danger at large as dogs do? Not that every dog is a danger. I think of the Dingo, which seems to be halfway betweeen a wild species and domesticated but usually not harmful to humans.

corvus

why should I expect her to put up with being man-handled or being held to strict rules that go strongly against her grain when I don't expect that from my other animals that don't accept everything I do to them? Just because a dog will accept it, does it mean we should expect them to?  

I don't expect my dogs to be forgiving (or accepting) of everything I do. They just are. I don't expect them NOT to be forgiving (or accepting) either. I just accept that they are accepting.

And I accept that the cats aren't as much so. It's just who they are. I don't compare them to me or any other species. They're just dogs; they're who they are.

I think that one of the best things about dogs is that they are so forgiving--I'll use Jack as an example.  He would never have come through this elbow dysplasia thing a mentally whole dog if he were not forgiving.  His limbs were poked, prodded, and manipulated by several different vets while trying to diagnose the issue and pinpoint the source of pain.  He was operated on, then had to be confined to a crate most of the time for a month following his recovery.

During that time he went through physical therapy, part of which required him to lay on his side and have exercises/hot packs/cold packs done on his legs twice a day.  He did not like to lay down and be still so he essentially had to be alpha rolled (forced as gently as possible onto his side and made to stay there--usually by holding him).  We did try to get him to do it on his own, and sometimes he would, but when he was not being cooperative he had to be made to lay still.  Through all this he had a great attitude.  The worst thing he did was struggle a bit--no growling, no snapping--nothing.  At the end of it I am still his favorite person and he enjoys following me anywhere.  He loves going to the vet and looks forward to physical therapy.  If Jack were not so forgiving I don't think he would have recovered--physically and mentally-as well as he has.

denise, your post is right on target, imo.

forgiveness is another anthromorphic lots of humans put onto their dogs. to forgive means that a dog must initially not forgive, perhaps dwell on a grudge (sorry xerxes, point is taken but i am not quite sure your example qualifies as a dog holding a grudge - it seems more like a quick reactive gangup and a video would have been great to observe lucy's [and the other 2 dogs] assertive signals given off simultaneously with the others in that exchange - it probably happened real quick-like, didn't it?)

... and i don't believe that happens in a dogs mind. i do see action/reaction/and recall of memory that makes it look as if they might forgive or hold grudges - but i do tend to think that these are higher brain functions found in primates. do dogs have emotions, yes - that is an aspect of their personality of being. i think that dogs do accept things as they are in front of their noses, ears, and eyes... and act according to what their brain, senses, and hormones tell them - real time.

Do you think it would be possible to dwell less on the word 'forgiveness' here? I have said more than once now that I wasn't talking about forgiveness in the emotional sense. Dogs are easy, folks. Sometimes I think too easy. I think that because we take it for granted that we don't need to be so careful with them.

This morning my mother and I attempted to get my hare into a crate so he could go to the vet and get his cast off. With him feeling fit as a fiddle, thanks, he decided he'd prefer to leap madly about the room, clambering over furniture on three legs and threatening to try climbing the walls. In the interests of getting him to the vet without requiring more treatment, we gave up. It was the only thing we could do in the circumstances. I came down from that harrowing experience and looked at my dog, who collapsed on my feet asking for a belly rub. It's truly lovely that when she needs to go to the vet, I say, "Penny, in the car" and she jumps in all on her own. But having this animal that you can never expect that kind of easiness from makes me appreciate how much I take it for granted that my dog will just do what I want her to one way or another. I never sit down and think how best to approach something she's not going to like the way I do with Kit. I just expect her to deal. She does, but I think I could do better by her by pretending I don't know that she'll just deal and giving my treatment of her a little more thought.

I don't know if dogs can hold grudges, but if rabbits can, maybe dogs can. Rabbits are more social than dogs.

I'm not convinced dingoes aren't very dangerous to humans. The wild dingoes I've met have all run, but I've met some tame ones and semi-tame ones that have been quite serious about biting should someone get too close. I know of one that attacked someone when they were trying to rescue a goanna from it. Neutered and leash-trained, you still have to be careful with them. I've learnt to assume they'll bite me if I approach them.

corvus

Dogs are easy, folks.

Uummm... I don't think they can all be so easy. Cara and Mia are a DREAM easy! Yes. The others... way different. Not easy. Hard! LOL It depends on the dog, IMO.  

corvus

It's truly lovely that when she needs to go to the vet, I say, "Penny, in the car" and she jumps in all on her own. But having this animal that you can never expect that kind of easiness from makes me appreciate how much I take it for granted that my dog will just do what I want her to one way or another. I never sit down and think how best to approach something she's not going to like the way I do with Kit.

Emphasis added.

I do. All the time. I have to. Having large, strong, extremely intelligent and sensitive dogs makes premeditation a necessity. Cara and Mia not so much. But when it comes to "making" Jaia and B'asia do something that I  want that they might not necessarily want, I have to sit down and think how best to approach it for success and to prevent making a negative memory that they will draw on in the future. I have learned this from them. Because all it takes is one time for them to say, "I'm not doing that crap again." Cara and Mia will do it, just because I ask. Jaia, especially, makes his decisions based on self-interest. So, yeah, much premeditation.

lostcoyote

and i don't believe that happens in a dogs mind. i do see action/reaction/and recall of memory that makes it look as if they might forgive or hold grudges - but i do tend to think that these are higher brain functions found in primates. do dogs have emotions, yes - that is an aspect of their personality of being. i think that dogs do accept things as they are in front of their noses, ears, and eyes... and act according to what their brain, senses, and hormones tell them - real time.

I totally understand where you are coming from.  A video would have been great. 

I wish it had been a reactive gangup.  However if it had been a reaction, it would have happened 10-15 minutes prior when un-Lucky entered the park.  I can't explain how the mind of a Pharaoh Hound works.  I have told my story to several PH owners and they all smile and say things like..."Oh yes my dog wants to kill this particular , she's fine with all the others but she wants that one dead." or "My PH used to go to the DP and something similar happened..."

Either way, it happened and with no video, post event analysis has to go on interpretation of events from several observers. 

I do agree with you though that we as humans like to anthropomorphasize everything so it fits into our paradigm of understanding.  Part of being human is classification of things, filing things away for later use and/or analysis.  Forgiveness fits into our categories, as was well written by Denise.