Nice article on prong collars

mudpuppy

What behavior, exactly, did you reduce the likelihood of engaging in in future?

In our case, the behavior was noncompliance. The dog appeared to get the meaning, so I have to presume our communication was precise.

When you have a dog who can not be motivated through reinforcement, judiciously used punishment can motivate. Forget the morals and the "feel goods" - it is a fact that punishment can aid behavior modification. People use punishment in all sorts of emotional and noneffective ways, but effective use does exist.

I'm not talking about most dog owners, I'm talking about theory and principle.  I'm using my personal experience as support for my argument, and I don't mind you questioning it.  

My experience with a prong....and trust me, it was NOT something that I wanted to have to resort to, but Thor could literally pull me off my feet and done the street on my rump, and I HAD tried everything else.

I also tried it first....on my arm.  And yeah, it doesn't exactly hurt, but it's really uncomforable.  It wouldn't work if it wasn't.

The effective way to use a prong is to not LET a dog lunge to the end of the lead and self correct.  You have to keep the dog on a short enough lead to have control so s/he doesn't get jolted off their feet when they DO self correct.

I've since learned better and gentler methods, but I don't condemn anyone for resorting to a prong.  I just HOPE that they will take the time to have a good trainer show them HOW to use it.

Oh, and I agree.  The Leersburg position is meant to inflict maximum pain.  Not discomfort, but real pain.

spiritdogs

I was on a pit bull walk in Chicago with a girl that allowed her dog to "self correct" on the prong.  The dog still pulled, had no hair on her neck where the prong sat, and when she was allowed to lunge at something and "self correct" she bloodied her neck.  A male pit/boxer mix that we fostered for a while would eventually pull just as hard as he would on a flat collar if you allowed him to "self correct."

First of all, I've always said that a reactive dog (take that to mean one that lunges at other dogs or whatever) should not be in a prong collar, so this was an inappropriate use of the tool.  Also, if the girl constantly walked the dog and he continued to pull, the prong obviously was not working, so why did she not try another tool?  If the dog doesn't self correct on this device, then you try something else.  Personally, I see far too many dogs on prongs that don't belong on them.  They give the owners a false sense of security.  Many Pits are capable of pulling their owners off their pins even while wearing these collars, but the owners continue to be lugged along by their dogs.

The dog that "does not like head collars" has probably not been acclimated to one properly.  It takes time - and most people don't want to do that, or don't know how.  More often than not, they take the thing out of the box, give the dog a cookie, and slap it on. 

There's a neat video of Jean Donaldson doing it properly if anyone wants to Google around for it. 

Well, since I personally don't think that it's a good idea to allow the prong to self correct, nor did the trainer who fitted Jack and instructed me how to use it (APDT Rally judge, CDC evaluator, competes extensively in Rally and obedience), I can't say if the prong was the proper choice for said dog because I don't think the girl was using it correctly.  The dog was actually lunging at something she wanted to sniff as we were walking by rather than a person or other dog.

Jack actually was properly introduced to the GL as a pup in his obedience class with the help of the puppy class trainer.  He just doesn't like it.  I have no issue with the tool itself (although Sally has been mostly weaned onto a nylon slip collar, we used to use a GL with her all the time with success), but I won't force a dog that clearly does not want it on to wear it.  With the prong his body language is happy and relaxed, there are no dramatics, and he works very comfortably.  The prong was actually the last thing I went to other than a choke (which I do not have the skill to use properly).  It was Jack who told me that this was what he was most comfortable in, so that's what we went with.

Also, a great number of pits can and will pull their owners over with a head halter, possibly hurting themselves in the process.  I would have never, in a million years used a head halter on the pit/boxer we fostered for a while as he was *very* prey driven and *very* fast when he decided he wanted to go after something (cats, small dogs, horses-you name it).  I think he would have either broken his fool neck or broken the GL and subsequently killed whatever he had zeroed in on.  I've also seem an adult lab literally pull his owner across a store to get to Jack (to meet him) and the dog had a head halter on--it didn't faze him one bit.  Dogs can set their necks and chest nicely to pull on head halters.

I've yet to meet the device that a dog can't physically pull through when they decide on it. It may take them a few weeks of experimenting with the physics of it, or getting used to the pain or discomfort that results from it, but eventually they can figure it out. It took Conrad about 3 days to figure out how to pull with his no-pull harness. So whatever you use, the training is really the key, not the device. DH lets (and I am sure actually inadvertently encourages) Conrad pull in his harness, and has in the mean time given him no good reason not to. DH is not any kind of dog training savant, by any stretch of the imagination. Conrad does not pull with me because I actually use the harness as a training tool and never for one second think that the harness is doing the training. I am doing the training. The harness just tips the physics of the situation slightly in my favor and makes it easier for him to succeed and harder for him to fail.

There are very few things like this out there that don't rely on some form of pain or discomfort to get the point across to the dog (even the Easy Walk harness uses a tightening chest-strap that constricts when the dog pulls--I specifically chose another brand that did not have that). I'm not saying that in a value-judgment kind of way, but let's be real.  It absolutely makes me crazy when users of both the prong and the head collar claim that there's some kind of subtle acupressure going on there (or my favorite is that the prong simulates the bite of the mother? ). Just call it what it is and be done with it. It is using a scale of discomfort ranging from mild annoyance to serious pain as either (a hoped-for) positive punisher or (the absence of it as a) negative reinforcer. I wish more people (not referencing anyone here) would just, like, be okay with that and admit to it, because that might lead to people using these things in a more responsible and effective way. All the ***-footing around with them and claiming they don't hurt or don't cause discomfort I think causes people to use them way longer than they should (after all, if it's no big deal, why not walk a dog on a head collar it's entire life?), and also to nag instead of punish (if you're going to go for punishment, do it in a way that is effective and gets the job done and that can sometimes require you to bite the bullet and stop being so squeamish).

Dogs can set their necks and chest nicely to pull on head halters.

Which is what they can also do with harnesses, flat collars, prongs, Easy Walks, etc.  There is no magic bullet, except good handling and good training. 

houndlove

 I wish more people (not referencing anyone here) would just, like, be okay with that and admit to it, because that might lead to people using these things in a more responsible and effective way. All the ***-footing around with them and claiming they don't hurt or don't cause discomfort I think causes people to use them way longer than they should (after all, if it's no big deal, why not walk a dog on a head collar it's entire life?), and also to nag instead of punish (if you're going to go for punishment, do it in a way that is effective and gets the job done and that can sometimes require you to bite the bullet and stop being so squeamish).

I love the way you said this.

houndlove

after all, if it's no big deal, why not walk a dog on a head collar it's entire life?

This is how I feel, especially about 99% of pet dogs (not necessarily the dogs of folks on this board) that will never get training they need -- either due to the owners not wanting to put the time and energy in or not caring if the dog pulls.

I tend to pick apart my handling before I change tools. Am I clicking at the right time? Is the reward being placed right where I want her? Am I communicating clearly what I want from her? It's far more labor intensive, and I think that is a deterrent for some people.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

This is how I feel, especially about 99% of pet dogs (not necessarily the dogs of folks on this board) that will never get training they need

I'm not sure about the statistic which, granted, may or may not have been for effect, but I would agree that it is probably the majority of the cases for those not as erudite as we are, here. And this is why I take issue with Dunbar's statement about the Gentle Leader in that video. He said he wouldn't bother training his dog, Claude, any farther since the equipment accomplished what he wanted. I think it was irresponsible to say that. There may be some dogs that will have problems learning leash manners and continued use of corrective equipment may be necessary. And, as I have said before, I think someone using such equipment is showing some responsibility. But, IMHO, training should always be foremost and the equipment should be used in conjunction with training. Ideally, anyway. I know there will be exceptions. But I won't discard a rule of thumb just because of an exception, in some cases. Also, Dunbar may have said that for effect and may possibly continue training, anyway, as might be his personal choice. Which again, makes the statement suspect, though I don't have any ill thoughts about the Gentle Leader or similar gear, itself.

Nor do I condemn anyone for continued use of corrective equipment. It's just that, personally, I would seek to do further train and not rely soley on the equipment.

This is what I learned from my experience with Thor.  That I DID rely too much on the equipment even though I didn't use corrections with it.  It took forEVER to wean him off wearing his "jewelry" even when I wasn't attaching a lead to it.  For many, many months after I started using JUST the flat collar, he still "needed" to wear the darned prong to walk nicely.....and he wore it absolutely without a lead....it was just an accessory.

Clearly, we made progress, but I didn't TRAIN enough.  And I have grown in leaps and bounds in training loose lead since then.  And that happened because I was willing to open my mind to new ideas.

glenmar

This is what I learned from my experience with Thor.  That I DID rely too much on the equipment even though I didn't use corrections with it.  It took forEVER to wean him off wearing his "jewelry" even when I wasn't attaching a lead to it.  For many, many months after I started using JUST the flat collar, he still "needed" to wear the darned prong to walk nicely.....and he wore it absolutely without a lead....it was just an accessory.

Clearly, we made progress, but I didn't TRAIN enough.  And I have grown in leaps and bounds in training loose lead since then.  And that happened because I was willing to open my mind to new ideas.

Interestingly enough my friends GS is at this point right now. They don't hook to the prong but yet don't leave the house without it. He did training in the place I was asked to leave because as they told me; ("All of our dogs wear prongs"). I told the gentleman training that I would put one on Mozart under one condition. He had to put it around his neck and run, allow me to give him a correction, if he had no pain or blood I would use it. To my amazement he refused, go figure. I can think of no better way to absolutely ruin a Border Collie.

What I learned, is that I wasn't doing enough training, that I wasn't being "the most fascinating thing on earth".

I tried soooooo very hard.  I used everything suggested to me.  But dang, that boy was STRONG like bull, and my upper body strength has been seriously compromised by a bunch of surgeries.  I made like a tree to the point of growing roots.....still he pulled.  I absolutely agonized over using a prong with him, but, it was effective, and obviously I trained ENOUGH with it, without corrections, for him to get the message.  But dang, he still needed to wear the foolish thing forever!

My suggestion would be to try a long line and learn to be the absolute most fascinating thing on earth and let the neighbors think they ARE insane.  My dogs are so used to my nonstop chatter that if I stop talking THEY stop walking......huh?  What's wrong with mom????  She's QUIET!!

And, today, I can take all 6 german shepherds out in the woods, alone, for an off lead romp, or on leash for a walk in town.  The prong didn't do that.

For a dog who's not a puller but has problems with environmental stimuli, I've found the key is timing. Conrad goes through a set of behaviors before he gets super reactive, or before he locks on to a scent, and when he gets to a certain point he absolutely can not listen or learn--his brain just shuts off and he starts working entirely from his autonomic nervous system. I'm learning to identify the very early stages of that behavior chain and disrupt it before he gets to the point of overload. And little by little the entire set of behaviors is being dialed down, he's starting to expect me at a certain point to cue him and he pauses and waits to see if that happens. The equipment is a safety net should I screw up on the timing. I still want to try to keep him from rehearsing this behavior, even if I am off with the timing.

Fortunately I've never had to deal with a sled-dog puller. All three dogs I've had have had minor leash-manners issues to pull up but none have just been "put your head down and puuuullllll" typed dogs.  

Mozart does pull like a sled dog if I let him, he can also walk with me. I never trained him for a heel position, I only went for loose leash. If we are somewhere he can stretch his legs then I clip him on a reel and let him run. He was also very reactive to cars. It was like trying to control the Tasmanian devil when a car would go by. With walking I had to work on his focus, I spent a lot of time walking backwards and clicking and treating even a glancing eye contact, then slowly turned it forward. The car issue was much tougher. I would walk toward a road until he started to react to the traffic, at first that was about 100 feet away. At that point I would back away and click as soon as his focus was back on me. At that spot I would then just ask for a sit, or a down. Just train there for a short time. Then I would start toward the highway again trying to keep his focus. Over time and with a lot of short training sessions he can now walk along the highway with little trouble. The exception would be a loud motorcycle going by, then he loses it but only for a very short time.

"When you have a dog who can not be motivated through reinforcement,"

How can you have a dog who cannot be motivated through reinforcement?  If you can't find ANY kind of positive reinforcement that works, negative reinforcement can be very effective. Much more effective than punishment.