Nice article on prong collars

To me, the ideal use of a collar such as a prong collar would -R. Once the connection of not pulling equals comfort becomes more classically conditioned and even getting the dog to pay attention to you then, ideally, one could phase out that collar.

I can stipulate that there are some working breeds who are rewarded by their job more than a treat in a given circumstance. Example, a LGD locking eyes with a coyote or idiot tourist may not care for a treat, just then. Then again, at that point in time, they are doing the job they were trained and bred for, which is worlds apart from walking on leash, imo.

OTOH, training can do a lot. I watched a dog show where the Sibe entry was from an actual working team and she walked on the dog show lead like any other dog when most of her working life is not spent in heel but in harness, in front, pulling like a freight train and running like the wind, the antithesis of LLW.

mudpuppy

"When you have a dog who can not be motivated through reinforcement,"

How can you have a dog who cannot be motivated through reinforcement?  If you can't find ANY kind of positive reinforcement that works, negative reinforcement can be very effective. Much more effective than punishment.

Heh, I meant positive reinforcement above.

And when you have exhausted R+ and R-, punishment can be very effective.  

I am sure I am arguing about exceptional cases, but you've thrown around "nevers" and I can't agree.  My experience has been colored by owning a dog who didn't give an eff much of the time, and who displayed dangerous behavior that HAD to be addressed. Being a tree is not so hot when your pants are getting ripped up by a tantrum throwing dog.