Nice article on prong collars

mudpuppy

I agree in principle- but how sure are you that your dog was "willfully" ignoring your command? 90% of the time when dogs disobey it's because they are distracted or confused. Dogs don't generalize well at all, in fact they really suck at it; many people don't realize that just because the dog "understands" the command at home, in the backyard, and in the petstore doesn't necessarily mean the dog has any clue what the command means when in the park or when a squirrel is present or when the owner is wearing a hat; or that a dog that understands COME said in calm voice really can't recognize COME said in an excited voice as the same sound; and they assume the dog "blew them off" and deliver a very unfair and ineffective correction.

This statement makes it sound like you can never count on a "reliable" come command.  What are you trying to say here MP?  No dog trained or not generalizes but a reliably trained dog comes no matter what they are doing.

 I used a prong on River for a few months with great success!  I love it!!  It helped to give me confidence and not worry about loosing control of a massive dog.  However, once my training was progressing and he learned how to walk on the leash (via: the prong) I didn't need it anymore.  Just like many of my tools.  PS:  The prong does not cause pain... 

Oh, he was willfully ignoring me. He was capable of obeying the commands in question in the environment in question. He was also the master of this very awkward full body squat that he'd offer when instead of down when he felt like it, or lying down when I asked for a sit. 

He was a riot.  I thought he was dumb when he was young, until our (positive only) trainer told me he wasn't dumb, he was passive-aggressive. LOL so true! This was long before any corrections became involved.  We simply worked harder with him.  

luvmyswissy

PS:  The prong does not cause pain... 

Have you worn one yourself?  Not having a dig there, genuinely quite curious.

mudpuppy

I agree in principle- but how sure are you that your dog was "willfully" ignoring your command? 90% of the time when dogs disobey it's because they are distracted or confused. Dogs don't generalize well at all, in fact they really suck at it; many people don't realize that just because the dog "understands" the command at home, in the backyard, and in the petstore doesn't necessarily mean the dog has any clue what the command means when in the park or when a squirrel is present or when the owner is wearing a hat; or that a dog that understands COME said in calm voice really can't recognize COME said in an excited voice as the same sound; and they assume the dog "blew them off" and deliver a very unfair and ineffective correction.

Every word of this is right on the money, you have to train everywhere and anywhere. And recall and emergency recall take a lot of work to be solid everywhere. I have a terrific program for a great "clicker trained " recall. If anyone is interested PM me and I'll pass it along to you.

The prong part of this I am  on.

He was also the master of this very awkward full body squat that he'd offer when instead of down when he felt like it, or lying down when I asked for a sit.

Sorry, these are classic behaviors of an under-trained dog, not a "willful" dog. Lots of dogs don't like DOWN position, so they try to offer as little as possible in the way of a DOWN in hopes their trainer won't notice and will reward anyway. Easily trained away by simply ignoring the bad "down" offerings and heavily rewarding the perfect downs- in jargon, you need to maintain your criteria. Lying down when asking for a sit means he isn't very clear on his cues- all he knows is he sometimes gets rewarded for sitting, sometimes for down, not sure which you asked for, so he guesses. Practically every dog in our basic obedience classes go through phases of doing this. If you start correcting a dog (who doesn't like down already) for offering downs when you asked for a sit, you will get a nice sit, but you're making it less likely that he offer nice downs when asked to down. Most dogs end up trained regardless of which method(s) you use, but some methods are more efficient than others. Corrections are rarely the most efficient method.

luvmyswissy

  PS:  The prong does not cause pain... 

  No?

If it is used as a self correcting device, no I don't think it causes pain.  Pressure, yes, in a unique way.  Possibly even discomfort.  I would rather this be used to HELP an owner teach LLW than a check chain.

Collar pops with this thing on?  No thanks.  Yee-ouuwwch!

mudpuppy

He was also the master of this very awkward full body squat that he'd offer when instead of down when he felt like it, or lying down when I asked for a sit.

Sorry, these are classic behaviors of an under-trained dog, not a "willful" dog. Lots of dogs don't like DOWN position, so they try to offer as little as possible in the way of a DOWN in hopes their trainer won't notice and will reward anyway. Easily trained away by simply ignoring the bad "down" offerings and heavily rewarding the perfect downs- in jargon, you need to maintain your criteria. Lying down when asking for a sit means he isn't very clear on his cues- all he knows is he sometimes gets rewarded for sitting, sometimes for down, not sure which you asked for, so he guesses. Practically every dog in our basic obedience classes go through phases of doing this. If you start correcting a dog (who doesn't like down already) for offering downs when you asked for a sit, you will get a nice sit, but you're making it less likely that he offer nice downs when asked to down. Most dogs end up trained regardless of which method(s) you use, but some methods are more efficient than others. Corrections are rarely the most efficient method.

I have to agree with mudpuppy on this one.  And, one should never discount the possibility of "intelligent disobedience" in any dog.  You might issue a recall someday, and the dog doesn't come, or comes hesitantly, not because he doesn't recognize or understand the cue, but because he has spotted or smelled something threatening in the environment that you didn't notice.  We need to learn to recognize the subtlest of canine signals before assuming disobedience, since they are certainly equipped with better olfactory capabilities than we.  That doesn't mean that dogs aren't sometimes disobedient, but the likelier situation is one of under-generalization.  Do any of you really know how many successful repetitions are needed in each environment for the average dog to attain fluency in a given behavior?

For those of you who think the prong causes no pain, ask a friend to give you the same level of correction you would give to a "disobedient" dog.  I think you will find that the smaller links are more painful than the larger ones, and that neither is exactly a cervical collar. 

spiritdogs

 

 And, one should never discount the possibility of "intelligent disobedience" in any dog. 

I see you've met Mozart?  

 Personally, I never allow a dog to self correct on a prong.  In my experience, it only makes the dog insensitive.  Now, this could be because I've only used them on pretty insensitive breeds, but that is what I have seen (Jack's physical therapy vet told me that labs actually have fewer tracts that send pain messages to their brains than most other breeds).  I was on a pit bull walk in Chicago with a girl that allowed her dog to "self correct" on the prong.  The dog still pulled, had no hair on her neck where the prong sat, and when she was allowed to lunge at something and "self correct" she bloodied her neck.  A male pit/boxer mix that we fostered for a while would eventually pull just as hard as he would on a flat collar if you allowed him to "self correct."

I use a prong with Jack for now, and though he is usually good on it and can be managed with verbal communication, I will give him a small correction (NOT a collar "pop"-more of a squeeze) if I need to-it doesn't take much and I don't give more than necessary.  He is *way* happier working on the prong than anything else we've tried.  He did not like head halters at all (he'd walk find on them but if we stopped he'd throw himself on the ground and paw at his face) or no-pull harnesses (he was obviously not comfortable and would sometimes just refuse to move forward). 

sillysally

 Personally, I never allow a dog to self correct on a prong.  In my experience, it only makes the dog insensitive.  Now, this could be because I've only used them on pretty insensitive breeds, but that is what I have seen (Jack's physical therapy vet told me that labs actually have fewer tracts that send pain messages to their brains than most other breeds).  I was on a pit bull walk in Chicago with a girl that allowed her dog to "self correct" on the prong.  The dog still pulled, had no hair on her neck where the prong sat, and when she was allowed to lunge at something and "self correct" she bloodied her neck.  A male pit/boxer mix that we fostered for a while would eventually pull just as hard as he would on a flat collar if you allowed him to "self correct."

I use a prong with Jack for now, and though he is usually good on it and can be managed with verbal communication, I will give him a small correction (NOT a collar "pop"-more of a squeeze) if I need to-it doesn't take much and I don't give more than necessary.  He is *way* happier working on the prong than anything else we've tried.  He did not like head halters at all (he'd walk find on them but if we stopped he'd throw himself on the ground and paw at his face) or no-pull harnesses (he was obviously not comfortable and would sometimes just refuse to move forward). 

Great post and it just goes to show - this equipment is NOT suitable for every dog.... just like any other tool, it must be carefully evaluated before and during training.

I was on a pit bull walk in Chicago with a girl that allowed her dog to "self correct" on the prong.  The dog still pulled, had no hair on her neck where the prong sat, and when she was allowed to lunge at something and "self correct" she bloodied her neck.  A male pit/boxer mix that we fostered for a while would eventually pull just as hard as he would on a flat collar if you allowed him to "self correct."

First of all, I've always said that a reactive dog (take that to mean one that lunges at other dogs or whatever) should not be in a prong collar, so this was an inappropriate use of the tool.  Also, if the girl constantly walked the dog and he continued to pull, the prong obviously was not working, so why did she not try another tool?  If the dog doesn't self correct on this device, then you try something else.  Personally, I see far too many dogs on prongs that don't belong on them.  They give the owners a false sense of security.  Many Pits are capable of pulling their owners off their pins even while wearing these collars, but the owners continue to be lugged along by their dogs.

The dog that "does not like head collars" has probably not been acclimated to one properly.  It takes time - and most people don't want to do that, or don't know how.  More often than not, they take the thing out of the box, give the dog a cookie, and slap it on. 

There's a neat video of Jean Donaldson doing it properly if anyone wants to Google around for it. 

So, can a dog intentionally ignore a command he knows or not? Can't have it both ways. 

I have to smile at the determination Ivan was under trained.  He was consistently the top performer in his obedience classes.  He was one test short of passing his CGC at 9 months, and failed it only because he complained during the tie to a fence and walk away part. All of this was accomplished with NO positive punishments. He was leash reactive, and through patience and repetition we got him to stay calm 90% of the time.

If confusion were the issue,  then a very small number of corrections would not have  produced beautiful results. The proof was in the pudding.

And I know I've given myself a reputation as a barbarian, LOL, but the only reason we needed 100% compliance from Ivan is that he was prone to aggressive fits, and once he got going he was dangerous. I have no doubt that handled improperly, he would have killed me.  He probably would have been sad after, because he loved me, but his rages were something else. He had then from the start (we called them tantrums when he was a pup) but at 18 months they escalated to a terrifying point.

I never want to need to use prong corrections again.  I don't like them, I hated giving them.  I don't regret using them AT ALL, its just that I never want to own a dog that needs that level of control. No thanks.   

spiritdogs

Many Pits are capable of pulling their owners off their pins even while wearing these collars, but the owners continue to be lugged along by their dogs.

And some dogs can pull effectively in a head collar. 

"So, can a dog intentionally ignore a command he knows or not? Can't have it both ways. "

of course they can. And do. In which case one says the dog is "undermotivated" to comply.

So is a Correction appropriate for an "undermotivated" dog? remember a correction is a punishment. Meant to reduce the likelihood the dog will engage in the behavior again in future. Your dog "willfully" refuses to sit. You punish him. What behavior, exactly, did you reduce the likelihood of engaging in in future?  hard to say. Depends on how the dog understood what happened. Most commonly the dog is just totally confused so he becomes "subdued", i.e. he temporarily stops engaging in ANY behavior. And most dog owners mis-interpret this to mean the correction "improved" the dog's motivation, because "subdued" dogs aren't engaging in "misbehavior" anymore, and since they aren't distracted they are likely to comply with the next few commands delivered.
Thinking logically, however, what you wanted was a dog who was more likely in future to exhibit a particular behavior, not stop exhibiting a behavior. If you want the dog to be more likely to sit in future you should have reached for some type of reinforcement, whether positive or negative.

Corrections therefore appear to only be appropriate for stopping dogs from engaging in misbehaviors- raiding the trash perhaps. Not for teaching obedience to commands.