What makes YOU a positive trainer?

FourIsCompany

I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions.

Of course, we'll never really be able to get into their heads to see what they are thinking. But some patterns come about over time!

FourIsCompany

Could be they're just hungry.

Could be. But you could also test this out to see how the behaviours occur in the absence of food, as well as how long they last, or right after they've eaten a big meal, and see how interested they are in performing the activity then so food is not the issue. And to make it more concrete you could compare those two sets of data to just before a meal (testing with and without food), and halfway between meals to see what types of changes exist.

FourIsCompany

I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions. Could be they're just hungry.

 

I don't usually train with food, I train with play most of the time.  Xerk thinks that the behavior is part of a chain that leads to a game.  And more often than not it will.  If not a game, it definitely ends in a laugh-fest (and most dogs love them as well.)

When I'm training someone else's dog I use the same principles...make training part of a wonderful game.  The trainer's job is to teach the rules of the game. 

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

I also think Chuffy's point about all this being a human view is right on. 

 

I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions. Could be they're just hungry.

I also agree and also remember KMc making that very same point.  It does break my heart to think they are performing because of hunger.  Don't say that again.  And I know we can't read the dog's mind and the dogs can appear to be happy doing these tasks but I would bet the dog has a different preference and that preference would be more dog like behavior.

Oh, I said family dog, the house pet.  Working breeds are driven by their instinct and enjoy their job because of that need is being satisfied.  The service dog is selected and goes through intensive professional training to perform a job.  The dog willfully does its job and is happy but I am sure it also has other preferences.  I see these dogs all the time at work I can't help but think there is something missing and that is more joy in their life.  There is a big difference between the average dog owner's dog and a service dog.

Xerxes

FourIsCompany

I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions. Could be they're just hungry.

 

I don't usually train with food, I train with play most of the time. 

Any book references for this?

spiritdogs

As to the question of servitude, I suspect that my dogs, whatever behaviors they are trained to do, consider it all a fun game, and are not at all victims of oppression.  Do you consider your husbands, wives, or children to be servants because they know how to pick up after themselves or shut a door?  Didn't you have to "train" your children to wash behind their ears or tie their shoelaces?   You didn't ridicule them for being talented  enough to learn those skills, I hope.

 

DH and I do what needs to be done to keep things running smoothly.......I can't speak for the children part...........I expect my dogs to fit into this household by behaving and showing respect to me, DH and the house we live in and the property we own.....I realize it is my responsibility to show them what I want of them.....I, personally see no gain from having them perform tricks....I am perfectly happy with how things are....and maybe I should ask them if  roaming in the woods with me, chasing a four wheeler or other fun things is more to their liking compared to sneezing on command or shutting drawers.....

FourIsCompany

I even got Mia a stud collar to wear while they're out in the fields... That's positive punishment, right?

Thanks for responding in the spirit I intended.

You may have fitted the collar on but it was an environmental punishment and far more effective because it happens at the instant of mouthing her and the intensity is directly related to the amount of force applied by B'Asia, far quicker and more exact than you could have managed on crutches from across the room or the back 10 acres. You may have used other corrections but in this case, you structured the environment most effectively, I would say. And, after a while, it may have been such that the discomfort and startling sound of teeth on studs went away as leaving Mia alone increased, thereby sneaking in some -R. And, of course, providing some rewards for good behavior, as well as the reward of peaceful inclusion and a security that there is structure in the world and that B'Asia need not take it upon herself to constantly refresh it. You may have, indeed, made a grand tour de force.

And I will re-iterate what I said before. A positive trainer can use +P, if used judiciously and all the proper factors are in place. It's just not usually, imho, the first method out of the box, or the most predominate one. And, imho, the positive trainer will seek the most minimal use of +P, if possible. So, as others have noted, there might be a range of positive trainers. I'm not going to let that stop me from thinking of myself as a positive training person (I am not a certified trainer). And perspective varies with each person. One person notes that there is variety in +R teachers. Another thinks that +R teachers have formed a cabal or guild and that everyone of them is cut from the same cloth. And another sees good in both.

snownose

spiritdogs

As to the question of servitude, I suspect that my dogs, whatever behaviors they are trained to do, consider it all a fun game, and are not at all victims of oppression.  Do you consider your husbands, wives, or children to be servants because they know how to pick up after themselves or shut a door?  Didn't you have to "train" your children to wash behind their ears or tie their shoelaces?   You didn't ridicule them for being talented  enough to learn those skills, I hope.

 

DH and I do what needs to be done to keep things running smoothly.......I can't speak for the children part...........I expect my dogs to fit into this household by behaving and showing respect to me, DH and the house we live in and the property we own.....I realize it is my responsibility to show them what I want of them.....I, personally see no gain from having them perform tricks....I am perfectly happy with how things are....and maybe I should ask them if  roaming in the woods with me, chasing a four wheeler or other fun things is more to their liking compared to sneezing on command or shutting drawers.....

Probably.  But does that mean that learning stuff like that has NO VALUE AT ALL to your dogs?  I mean, does it HAVE to be one or the other?  Doggy stuff or learning-with-human-stuff?

William will probably enjoy going out and doing "kid stuff" as he gets older... playing at his friends house, getting muddy, riding a bike, building things etc.  Does that mean that time spent WITH ME is of no value at all?  It's no good me showing him how to make somehting or teaching him a new rhyme or reading a book or doing a jigsaw with him, because, oh he gets all his enjoyment and stimulation when he is out on his bike...?

I liken this kind of training to a puzzle.  A fun puzzle that the dog can enjoy working out.  And, as I have hinted at above.... it's something the dog does WITH his owner.  Its amazing for bonding.  For shy dogs, its also amazing for confidence building.  For "hyper" dogs, capable of running hard all day and STILL not being tired, its mentally tiring.  And its one of those things the dog can't do on his own or with another dog.... its one more reason why hanging around with that weird two leg is a really good idea.... amazing and fun stuff happens...

ron2

And I will re-iterate what I said before. A positive trainer can use +P, if used judiciously and all the proper factors are in place. It's just not usually, imho, the first method out of the box, or the most predominate one. And, imho, the positive trainer will seek the most minimal use of +P, if possible.

 

In total agreement over here.  

Xerxes

I don't usually train with food, I train with play most of the time. 

I knew I shouldn't have edited this. I had written, "Could be they're just hungry. For food, attention or whatever."

And I took the second part off because I didn't want to sound snippy. I'm afraid I lavish good food, play, attention and affection on my dogs without them doing a thing but being themselves.

And yes, spiritdogs, I have "trained" my husband to do some household things. But I did that because he asked me to. I didn't withhold anything until he did it, nor did I praise him when he learned to do it.  

Moderators note:  on page 6 I asked that this thread be kept on topic.  Two plus pages later it still hasn't happened.  Instead we have sniping and name calling going on still.  Teaching tasks around home, "parlor tricks", etc, really aren't the topic here.

This is my last request that this thread remain on topic.

Chuffy

Probably.  But does that mean that learning stuff like that has NO VALUE AT ALL to your dogs?  I mean, does it HAVE to be one or the other?  Doggy stuff or learning-with-human-stuff?

 

I use plenty of positive training.....and reward in my doggie world comes in many forms.....one of them happens to be fun out in the woods or in the field.............you would be amazed at what my dogs have learned from being rewarded with play and just being able to be dogs.....

DPU

Xerxes:

FourIsCompany: I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions. Could be they're just hungry.

I don't usually train with food, I train with play most of the time.

Any book references for this?

you don't need a book. just do it.

A trainer once told me "YOU need to be the cookie". I try to remember this every time I train.

FourIsCompany

My dogs offer behaviors occasionally and I think it's cute. I don't think it's a very natural behavior, though, for them to try so hard to figure out what I want. I don't like the thought of a dog trying so desperately to figure out what the human wants him to do. It seems a bit frantic and unnatural to me.

Brace yourselves, I'm about to talk about my hare again! This just made me think about what happened with us. Despite me being immersed in the world of animal behaviour at the time I took Kit in, and despite being usually quite sensitive to animals and what they're saying, I was not very receptive to Kit's attempts to communicate with me. He came up with a few very unnatural ways to tell me things all on his own. When he unexpectedly runs out of water in the middle of the night, he rattles around and makes a heap of noise until I wake up, drag myself out of bed and go see what's up with him. He discovered that noise gets my attention. That's bizarre for a hare, if you ask me. They rely on keeping a low profile in the wild. And once his water bottle wasn't working and he waited until I was at his cage, then he went to his bottle, licked on the ball, then started biting at the bottle stem, licked again, nosed it, and looked at me expectantly. That was a bunch of behaviours I'd never seen from him strung together spontaneously specifically to tell me something. Wow. So, I think that offering behaviours can indeed be unnatural, but sometimes we might need a little help from our animal pals. Let's face it, we are in an unnatural relationship, and they're better at it than we generally are. Maybe it's not all that unnatural to find ways to talk to us. I think an animal comfortable with offering behaviours might be better equipped to communicate with us, but that's a fair bit of speculation on my part. I do see your point, and unnatural behaviours sometimes make me uncomfortable. However, I've learnt that some unnatural behaviours are a great big help to me! You should see how my dog tells us when the other two are trying to escape from the yard. She has a special bark just for that, and she stands by the back door doing it until someone comes to sort the trouble-makers out. My mother doesn't know what she'll do when Penny comes to live with me again. She'll have no one to tell her when the other two are planning an escape.

snownose

Chuffy

Probably.  But does that mean that learning stuff like that has NO VALUE AT ALL to your dogs?  I mean, does it HAVE to be one or the other?  Doggy stuff or learning-with-human-stuff?

 

I use plenty of positive training.....and reward in my doggie world comes in many forms.....one of them happens to be fun out in the woods or in the field.............you would be amazed at what my dogs have learned from being rewarded with play and just being able to be dogs.....

I'm not denying that that is a valuable reward.  I'm saying that it does not negate the value of play, learning and problem solving WITH humans.  It does not have to be one or the other.