What makes YOU a positive trainer?

spiritdogs

I don't have a video camera, or I'd be glad to entertain you with that.  However, if I recollect, Kim has one and has shared video of the effectiveness of clicker training with her dog.  Don't you believe her?

 

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Yay, interesting discussion!

 

FourIsCompany

I don't think it's a very natural behavior, though, for them to try so hard to figure out what I want.

You don't think it's natural behaviour for dogs to try out different things? Or just to try hard to figure out what you want specifically? I would think that it is VERY natural for dogs to have a wide repertoire of behaviours to choose from to try and accomplish any given task, rather than just having one. Not even speaking in terms of training, but in life in general. Dogs that can creatively think about a situation and try alternatives rather than have only one are more likey to succeed at what they want, and would have been more likely to survive/reproduce/eat (this doesn't just apply to wild canids either, but for many domestic dogs). I would think that dogs offering behaviours and altering strategies is a very, very natural trait, and would perhaps argue that it is humans that have, in combination, bred out (in some lines, while in others they strive to maintain it, such as in working dogs of various venues), and trained out, what would be an innate trait. Puppies give a great example of this, in how they are so very creative with some of the simplest things.

FourIsCompany

I don't like the thought of a dog trying so desperately to figure out what the human wants him to do. It seems a bit frantic and unnatural to me.

Hrm, so are you basing a dog offering behaviours as being frantic and desperate? If that was the case, then I think you would find that I would agree with you 100%. I would never promote such anxiety or stresses upon my pooches. However the behaviours I describe have no frantic activity or desperation within them at all. It is simply a try A: if it works, go with A. If it doesn't, try B. It's very calm, and very controlled. And perhaps it would be interesting to note that the lack of anxiety or stress is due to the sheer communication between us - my lack of reward is as clear to my dog as giving a "try again" signal. So they aren't upset or frustrated when they don't get it right the first time, they just know "no, that wasn't it, let's try something else". If I was working with a dog that became frustrated or shut down because they were having problems, I can say straight out that I would not work with a dog in that manner. Because yes, the dog's emotions and state of mind are what is most important.

For the record, when working with my guys I wouldn't normally wait so long to begin the teaching session. Gaci would have been on the dog bed within a minute, two minutes tops, as I would have used strict shaping controls.

But when I say I have a dog "offering" behaviours, they are engaged, active, and alert. And at the same time they are usually quite relaxed with it all. If you watched my 101 Things video with Gaci and the pop can that is what I mean. There is no arousal, or stress, or frustration, as we understand each other. Non-reward for attempted behaviours is not aversive to her, she knows to just try something else. And if I found that she wasn't getting it within a minute or so, that I couldn't find something to reward, I would set the situation up so it would be easier for her to do. I would perhaps even counterargue (the good arguing, as in debate!) that the pride that she feels, the sense of accomplishment, and success, at having figured it out herself, is reinforcing on its own for her, aside from food rewards, and it contributes to her understanding of "the game".

Another thing to note, though, is that we should differentiate between a dog that offers behaviours during teaching and a dog that offers them all of the time. Gaci doesn't wander around the house trying out behaviours to see what will get a reward. It's when, and only when, the clicker comes out that she will do this. She has learned that there is a place and time for offering behaviours, and that is the time that offering will be rewarded. I could see if you had an issue if you thought that my dogs were like this all of the time. That's not to say that the creativity doesn't spill out into other things, as it can (such as learning to open gates, finding ways to open zippers, etc) - that's the part that some people wouldn't like, but she's not constantly looking for methods of reinforcement by offering new behaviours. The "offering" game only happens in the presence of the clicker. At other times I only wish for her to do behaviours that I want, when I ask them.

Now, keep in mind this is not arguing to say "you're wrong I'm right!", but rather to address it in a slightly different fashion to perhaps get a different perspective on things. You have brought up a good issue and I would say based upon how you described offering behaviours, I would say Yes, I agree! I wouldn't want my dogs acting like that either! Perhaps this will assist you in understanding how I treat these situations with my guys. Even if you don't agree (which is fine!), perhaps there is something here that you hadn't considered or thought of, or put into a different perspective. Now that I understand your perspective I have learned a part of why you feel the way that you do.

Kim_MacMillan

Does having to defend your methods bother you? If so, why is that? I'm happy to defend any and all things that I discuss that I do with dogs. Perhaps its just me, but I grew up being taught early that to be a critical thinker, not only should you be addressing the issues of things you disagree with, but you SHOULD be able to defend your own position. Always question the mainstream, and have the ability to back up what you're talking about.

 

Good point.......well, I will defend my method which is a mixed bag of things....simply because "It works"

You know....at this point I don't even know what a +R trainer is anymore.....as I have witnessed in the past that what some +R trainers consider a positive method appeared to me as a rather rough way of handling a dog....

FourIsCompany

Kim_MacMillan

Heck, important, why aren't we ALL doing these things to make our lives easier?

 

When they can make dinner, do a couple loads of laundry and load the dishwasher (and I don't mean just lick the plates!), you'll have me convinced it's something to look into, okay? LOL

I am kind of repulsed by this conversation of making a family pet a servant.  These tasks are unnatural behaviors for the dog and it is the human taking advantage of the dog's motivators, tapping into their hunger drive and affection for the wrong purpose.  I would never treat my dogs or fosters as such and mostly because I would fear they would be less of a family pet and more of a hobby.  I see no value to the dog and for the human, I suppose if you have a stage and a paying audience, then there is some dollar worth. 

DPU, I hope you know I was joking about the laundry. And I think I tried to say what you have said here, only I tried to be a little more... diplomatic about it, but hey, what good is diplomacy, huh? I feel much like you do in that it's unnatural and I don't believe in tapping into their motivators to get them to perform.

I can't reconcile it though, that I agree with service and rescue dogs. I think giving a dog a job to do that helps people is a good thing. And those dogs must be trained. So the blanket statements about training have to come back to ME and MY preferences and interests.

 I've scanned this thread, not really a perusal, more of a scan and here are my thoughts:

If one is comfortable with having one's dog offer behaviors that's awesome.  If one has a working dog that isn't out working (bomb sniffing, herding, hunting, retrieving, locating, apprehending and holding suspects) and one wants the dog to help clean up, that's great.  It's also great if the behaviors that one expects are things like "wait at the curb" or remote downs or delayed retrievals or remote directional commands.

Dogs have an aptitude for learning that we barely tap into.  In any environment they can and will learn dozens and dozens of behaviors.  Whether we teach and mold these behaviors into something useful for us is entirely up to us.  If one person sees a working dog performing menial tasks as servitude, that's fine.  

I, personally, like the challenge of teaching myself to communicate effectively with my dog, and any fosters I may have, and teaching myself to teach them.  I expect a lot from my dogs and they expect a lot from me.   

Is every training method I use considered positive?  Nope.  But I always, always start with positive-at least now.  I have a host of other methods in my background.  I have realized, though, that with proper management I rarely need to call on them-even when working with dogs that are considered "aggressive" or "dominant." 

 

DPU

I am kind of repulsed by this conversation of making a family pet a servant.  These tasks are unnatural behaviors for the dog and it is the human taking advantage of the dog's motivators, tapping into their hunger drive and affection for the wrong purpose.  I would never treat my dogs or fosters as such and mostly because I would fear they would be less of a family pet and more of a hobby.  I see no value to the dog and for the human, I suppose if you have a stage and a paying audience, then there is some dollar worth. 

You must be utterly and totally repulsed by all service dogs then.

Wrong is in the eye of the beholder......some people think that using dogs to hunt and kill other animals is completely wrong. Some people think that having war dogs is wrong. Some people think that police dogs are wrong. Some people think that any and all dog sports are wrong. You can't please everybody.

If the dog loves doing it, pulling a closet open a modified tug game, putting toys in a basket it a modified retrieve. It's all semantics. If the dog loves it, the dog loves it. Who cares what the end result is?

For the record, my dogs are not my servants. Heck, they are by far the laziest beasts in the house when it comes to house duties! They don't close drawers behind me, nor do they pull closets open ahead of me. They do, however, clean up their own toys if I ask (which is like, once a month..hah). A little responsibility (for cookies!) is never a bad thing (again, JOKE! Joke!). ;-) But in the end it was simply humor, which obviously you took completely out of context. That's too bad, because given the situation everyone can use a little humor.

You see teaching tasks as being a servant. We have taken advantage of dogs for centuries. Seriously, if somebody DID wish to teach their dogs those things, and use them daily (aside from the thousands of service dogs that do it everyday....at least most of the non-service dogs would be happy and treat it like a game, since service dogs HAVE to do it), that's their choice, and I think it would be rather creative. But that's beyond the point of this thread....lol. If the dog views it as a game, who cares "what" the task is?

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I think getting the dog to help clean up is not a bad thing.  "Getting them to perform" by performing cute tricks or helping with household tasks is not really that different (to the dog) than teaching a retrieve or a remote down or scent discrimination or what have you.  It's all just behaviour.  The good thing about the stuff round the house is; it's fun and not only that but it is often a complex chain of behaviours or a discreet behaviour.  Now, most pet dogs don't need to know this stuff.  But I think it can help to improve the OWNER - their skill, their timing, their creativity.  It is very much a two way street, and generally both benefit.  I can't see how that can be framed as "bad".  I had one friend condemn me for teaching my dog to "sit up and beg".  Why?  It's not degrading to the dog.  He doesn't give a monkeys, he's going round showing the guests this new trick and finding out how beneficial it can be when they have food...  It's a very human judgement to think that way, I think.  I don't think teaching this kind of stuff makes you any less of a +ve trainer.... it might make you a better trainer, in a sense... as I said, it could well improve your timing, creativity etc.  How is that bad?

FourIsCompany

DPU, I hope you know I was joking about the laundry. And I think I tried to say what you have said here, only I tried to be a little more... diplomatic about it, but hey, what good is diplomacy, huh? I feel much like you do in that it's unnatural and I don't believe in tapping into their motivators to get them to perform.

I can't reconcile it though, that I agree with service and rescue dogs. I think giving a dog a job to do that helps people is a good thing. And those dogs must be trained. So the blanket statements about training have to come back to ME and MY preferences and interests.

 

To me, so much depends on the dog, and what he or she enjoys.  Sasha loves learning stupid parlor tricks.  We rarely perfect them, because performance isn't the point, but she gets happy happy happy when I think of some new trick for us to work on.  Trick-training doesn't go against her nature. She lights up.

Now Ivan had zero interest in learning stuff. So we taught him what he needed to know for safety and general house manners, and left him alone as far as pointless cute stuff.  

Very few dogs are cut out to be service dogs.  There are huge breeding programs designed to create dogs who are good at, and do not hate, being of service. There is a reason you don't see basenjis, akitas, or beagles as service dogs.  (Or at least, not very often. Exceptions always exist) It would be cruel to try and force a basenji to be a service dog. It would be cruel to force some dogs to learn tricks that don't make their lives easier or safer.

 

Dog_ma

It would be cruel to try and force a basenji to be a service dog.

I agree. But who said anything about force? If the Basenji loved it, then it wouldn't be cruel.

Dog_ma

It would be cruel to force some dogs to learn tricks that don't make their lives easier or safer.

I agree again. Who said anything about force? And in the end it's only cruel if the dog doesn't enjoy it. If the dog enjoys it, it's impossible for it to be cruel to them.

There are far more "service dogs" out there than simply the ones churned out by the public companies. There are many home-taught service dogs, from mutts to shelter dogs to that expensive purebred Papillon, that help people with all sorts of daily tasks, that you would call service dogs despite the fact that they don't wear the "official" accessories.

For the record, while I keep my mind perfectly open that there might be a dog in this world that doesn't like to learn, I have to say in my time living thus far, and the dogs I've interacted with, I've never yet met a dog that had no interest in learning things. I've met dogs that just hadn't found the right motivation, but lack of interest in learning? I've yet to meet one.

Dog_ma

FourIsCompany

DPU, I hope you know I was joking about the laundry. And I think I tried to say what you have said here, only I tried to be a little more... diplomatic about it, but hey, what good is diplomacy, huh? I feel much like you do in that it's unnatural and I don't believe in tapping into their motivators to get them to perform.

I can't reconcile it though, that I agree with service and rescue dogs. I think giving a dog a job to do that helps people is a good thing. And those dogs must be trained. So the blanket statements about training have to come back to ME and MY preferences and interests.

 

To me, so much depends on the dog, and what he or she enjoys.  Sasha loves learning stupid parlor tricks.  We rarely perfect them, because performance isn't the point, but she gets happy happy happy when I think of some new trick for us to work on.  Trick-training doesn't go against her nature. She lights up.

Now Ivan had zero interest in learning stuff. So we taught him what he needed to know for safety and general house manners, and left him alone as far as pointless cute stuff.  

Very few dogs are cut out to be service dogs.  There are huge breeding programs designed to create dogs who are good at, and do not hate, being of service. There is a reason you don't see basenjis, akitas, or beagles as service dogs.  (Or at least, not very often. Exceptions always exist) It would be cruel to try and force a basenji to be a service dog. It would be cruel to force some dogs to learn tricks that don't make their lives easier or safer.

 

 

Well, just for the record, my best "helper" is an Australian Shepherd.  They NEED a job, or they get very bored indeed.  I don't have cattle, but I do have other things she can learn to do.  I also think Chuffy's point about all this being a human view is right on.  And, I commend you on doing things with your dogs that THEY enjoy.  I do think that all dogs need certain skills - like "come", "stay", or "leave it".  Those are the skills that can save their lives.  But, if you have a dog that really doesn't enjoy parlor tricks, there might be something else he would enjoy.  My Sioux likes agility, but the hound?  Nope, he'd rather be a therapy dog and sleep on the couch the rest of the time.  Sequoyah is up for anything anytime, and enjoys learning to do things, although agility is not her favorite game - she likes, and is good at, tracking.  Maybe we should ask others, instead of whether they have taught their dogs to pick up toys, what is the most complex behavior they have taught their dog.  Actually, maybe that's a good subject for another thread, because this one is getting pretty tired.

Kim_MacMillan

Dog_ma

It would be cruel to try and force a basenji to be a service dog.

I agree. But who said anything about force? If the Basenji loved it, then it wouldn't be cruel.

Dog_ma

It would be cruel to force some dogs to learn tricks that don't make their lives easier or safer.

I agree again. Who said anything about force? And in the end it's only cruel if the dog doesn't enjoy it. If the dog enjoys it, it's impossible for it to be cruel to them.

There are far more "service dogs" out there than simply the ones churned out by the public companies. There are many home-taught service dogs, from mutts to shelter dogs to that expensive purebred Papillon, that help people with all sorts of daily tasks, that you would call service dogs despite the fact that they don't wear the "official" accessories.

For the record, while I keep my mind perfectly open that there might be a dog in this world that doesn't like to learn, I have to say in my time living thus far, and the dogs I've interacted with, I've never yet met a dog that had no interest in learning things. I've met dogs that just hadn't found the right motivation, but lack of interest in learning? I've yet to meet one.

 

I was simply making a point that some dogs enjoy learning and doing tricks, and other don't. Every dog might want to learn *something* but it isn't always going to be cute and fun tricks. 

As spiritdogs said, one of her dogs enjoys agility, another enjoys being a therapy dog.  

Dog_ma

I was simply making a point that some dogs enjoy learning and doing tricks, and other don't. Every dog might want to learn *something* but it isn't always going to be cute and fun tricks. 

As spiritdogs said, one of her dogs enjoys agility, another enjoys being a therapy dog.  

Oh of course, dogs have different interests. Your point wasn't clear from your post, thanks for clearing that up.

spiritdogs

I also think Chuffy's point about all this being a human view is right on. 

 

I agree. All of our judgments about what a dog loves and enjoys are just assumptions. Could be they're just hungry.

spiritdogs

what is the most complex behavior they have taught their dog. 

 

Most of what my dogs know, I didn't teach them. They learned themselves. They teach me for more than I have ever taught them.

spiritdogs

Actually, maybe that's a good subject for another thread, because this one is getting pretty tired.

 

And here, I thought it was getting good.