What makes YOU a positive trainer?

Kim_MacMillan

Because "what you do works" isn't why people call others extremists.

 

Well, in a way ...yes.....because, what people do other than just strict +R has to be defended on this forum, and that is when certain people get sick and tired of hearing the same sing song about +R, and how they are afraid to try it, or are too stupid/they don't understand it....and then names get dished out....like groupies of a certain tv personality....and then the +R folks get a nice little name, too......

Kim_MacMillan

I was of the understanding we were discussing dogs that do or do not offer behaviours. Or dogs that know HOW to offer behaviours and those that do not. Not their level of happiness or contentedness. They are not at all the same thing.

 

No, they are not the same thing. But their level of happiness and contentedness is what's important to me. Not whether or not they offer behaviors. And I have a different opinion than you apparently do of dogs that are taught to offer behaviors. I don't see that as a sign of happiness and contentedness and since that's what's important to me, I don't really want a dog that offers behaviors.

Does that make sense?  

FourIsCompany

I ask myself, "What is their value in doing this"?

And fine-tooth combing of the meaning of corrections aside, this is why I think you are a positive R trainer. Dogs do what works. And figuring out what rewards them and leads them to behavior is always effective. And in your problem with B'Asia and Mia, you may not have had a treat bag hanging on your belt or dangling off your crutches but you did construct an environment wherein the undesired behavior could extinguish because the other rewards desired were so obvious. That is motivational +R training. IMHO, a side effect of understanding and guiding to rewards and away from punishing things builds a trust, enhances the relationship, provides a greater spiritual connection, so to speak. I'm not saying that you can't or won't ever correct or punish your dogs but you also know how to lead them to greater things which happen to coincide with the great things you want. And your guiding thought is like my own. What motivates him (Shadow)?

 

spiritdogs

Somehow, that's exactly the response I expected. 

 

 Hmmmm.....I would close the drawer myself.....I am way too busy with having a life and making sure when rescues come in that all get along, you know having a good pack environment, that I don't think it is very important to teach a dog how to close a drawer....

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Moderators note:  this thread needs to return to topic.  Name calling, reports of name calling, reasons why it is OFF topic...not needed.  Take it back to the original topic please, and leave the other stuff out.

ron2

I think you are a positive R trainer.

 

And it's OK with me if you think that! LOL

I just don't call myself that because I DO use correction and punishment. Not all the time, not as a rule and very rarely as a first response. And I don't fully comprehend the location of the line above which one can proclaim the status of "+R trainer". But if you think I'm there, that's peachy. I don't agree NOR do I disagree. I just don't care and I'm not into the division.

By the way, with B'asia and Mia, I did use correction and I even got Mia a stud collar to wear while they're out in the fields... That's positive punishment, right? So it was a combination of several quadrants that works. And I do what works! LOL

But yes, I ALWAYS ask how I can find their value in doing what I want them to do.  

FourIsCompany

But their level of happiness and contentedness is what's important to me.

Oh, I very much agree. Their contentedness and happiness are the forefront of my priorities (along with safety, security, and health), beyond anything else. Whether or not they offer behaviours does not determine their level of happiness at all, although to date I can say that the dogs that have learned to offer behaviours that I've worked with tend to be the most eager learners in all avenues of life, so I think there may be a correlation to creativity allowing learning to happen more easily in other venues.

It's not the end of the world though if you never have a dog that offers behaviours. I've said before they are NOT dogs for everybody, and I wouldn't think badly of somebody whose dog didn't offer behaviours a lot (unless the dog didn't offer any behaviours at all, because everything other than the desired behaviour was punished away)! I simply said that there was an obvious difference between dogs who think creatively and those who don't have an excess of creative behaviour.

FourIsCompany

And I have a different opinion than you apparently do of dogs that are taught to offer behaviors.

Different opinion how? Do you somehow think that dogs offering behaviours is a bad thing? That's not a leading question, but a sincere one. Perhaps you have some insight that I have not yet realized. That's why I love discussions!

FourIsCompany

I don't see that as a sign of happiness and contentedness and since that's what's important to me, I don't really want a dog that offers behaviors.

That's fine, if that's not what you want. But perhaps some day you will have a need for a dog that offers behaviours and thinks creatively, so it's always something to keep in mind.  Just as I keep in the back of my mind whether there would ever be a need for me to have a dog that does NOT offer behaviours (I haven't found one yet).

FourIsCompany

Does that make sense?  

Yes, the answer makes perfect sense, so long as its clear that even though I like a dog that offers behaviours, their happiness and contentedness is as important to me as it is to you.

snownose

Well, in a way ...yes.....because, what people do other than just strict +R has to be defended on this forum

Does having to defend your methods bother you? If so, why is that? I'm happy to defend any and all things that I discuss that I do with dogs. Perhaps its just me, but I grew up being taught early that to be a critical thinker, not only should you be addressing the issues of things you disagree with, but you SHOULD be able to defend your own position. Always question the mainstream, and have the ability to back up what you're talking about.

And once again you are displaying a flawed expression with "just strict +R". How many times have we said to you, and to everyone else, that there is no such thing as strict R+? Nobody lives life with ONLY positive reinforcement. It's just not possible.

 For what it's worth, I think that those people you are talking about (which one of those would be myself I'm sure, because yes, I do challenge others' views, part of that is the way I was brought up, part of that is what university teaches you....challenge is not a bad thing, it's an opportunity for growth by both parties), have to defend their ways just as much as you do. The "R+ only way to stop garbage raiding" is a prime example. And you'll be surprised to know how happy people were to address that issue, rather than be offended that we were "challenged" in our views.

snownose

and that is when certain people get sick and tired of hearing the same sing song about +R,

You know, there are lots of people that also get tired of hearing the same sing song about R+....I do too. I get tired of how people choose to ignore that there is no such thing as "strictly R+", or that we only use treats, or that our dogs aren't reliable. I think everybody in some way has gotten tired of that sing song, it's not just you. It would be great if we didn't have to dispell all the myths that surround it over, and over, and over again.

snownose

and how they are afraid to try it, or are too stupid/they don't understand it

Now, I didn't say that. I said those people who call others extremists have underlying motivations and when people use such definitions there usually is a lack of understanding or self-doubt, yes. I didn't say just because you don't use it, you are afraid, or stupid (I never said that anywhere anyhow), or that you don't understand it. I think you are either misundestanding my words, or twisting my words. I'm not sure which.

snownose

and then names get dished out....like groupies of a certain tv personality....and then the +R folks get a nice little name, too......

I don't dish out names myself. I try to avoid labels, which is why I don't call myself an "anything" trainer (I don't even call myself a trainer). I don't call myself a clicker trainer, or a positive trainer. Rather I describe WHAT I do, WHY I do it, and WHY it works, and then let people fit me into whichever label fits their schema. I don't fit people into labels, as most people don't fit under one grouping. So my order of understanding people is likely different than your order of understanding people. When you say "+R folks" it has very little meaning to me, because I can see how most people on here use R+ in some manner or another.

snownose

I am way too busy with having a life and making sure when rescues come in that all get along, you know having a good pack environment, that I don't think it is very important to teach a dog how to close a drawer....

I dunno though....don't you think that having a little helper cleaning up behind you would save you that much more time? ;-) If you didn't have to shut the drawer then you'd have time for something else. When Gaci cleans up her own toys, that means that I don't have to. When she shuts her own kennel door, it's one more thing that I don't have to do! Heck, I can have her opening the closet so that by the time I get there I just have to pull my shirt of the hanger! Heck, important, why aren't we ALL doing these things to make our lives easier? *G*

 

 

 

 

Note.......this was meant as a little humor to lighten things up a bit.

 

snownose

spiritdogs

Somehow, that's exactly the response I expected. 

 

 Hmmmm.....I would close the drawer myself.....I am way too busy with having a life and making sure when rescues come in that all get along, you know having a good pack environment, that I don't think it is very important to teach a dog how to close a drawer....

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I don't have a video camera, or I'd be glad to entertain you with that.  However, if I recollect, Kim has one and has shared video of the effectiveness of clicker training with her dog.  Don't you believe her?

Personally, when it comes to teaching an animal tricks, tasks, and specific behaviors (teaching a dog to close a drawer being one of them) I would recommend marker (clicker) training using positive reinforcement combined with social communication (some might call this a "no reward marker";) to help the animal succeed. In this area which has been researched and defined by the good work of Karen Pryor along with others such as Bob Bailey, I need no convincing and could consider myself a "positive trainer" even though I never use either of those words to define the entire spectrum of everything it takes to live with a dog in social situations.

Positive reinforcement "training" is a quadrant of operant conditioning. There are three other quadrants. There is also the use and understanding of classical conditioning, social learning, and intelligent choice. Combine those with the many variables which occur outside of the controlled environment, and "positive training" alone will leave many trainers coming up short when they move away from trick training and try to deal with more serious social, psychological, and obsessive behavior problems.

There's a good interview I found on the Clicker Solutions site with Bob Bailey which is well worth a read. I found the interview after I heard that Bob set one young evangelical straight during a discussion where he said although he uses clicker training, he does not refer to himself as a "clicker trainer". He also has some interesting comments regarding the average dog owner using clicker training (from what I remember).

http://www.clickersolutions.com/interviews/bailey.htm

Gary Wilkes is also a very well known "clicker trainer", yet he also uses other OC quadrants when he feels it is the right choice. The "positive trainers" I've run into on the net don't like that, and I don't hear him recommended by the "positive onlys".

Kim_MacMillan

so long as its clear that even though I like a dog that offers behaviours, their happiness and contentedness is as important to me as it is to you.

 

Absolutely, it's clear and I believe it 100%.

Kim_MacMillan

Do you somehow think that dogs offering behaviours is a bad thing?

I don't think offering behaviors is a bad thing. My dogs offer behaviors occasionally and I think it's cute. I don't think it's a very natural behavior, though, for them to try so hard to figure out what I want. I don't like the thought of a dog trying so desperately to figure out what the human wants him to do. It seems a bit frantic and unnatural to me.

Dogs like to run and jump and play and tug and chase and hunt and fetch and sleep and eat. It's a dog's life. I don't think there's anything wrong with training dogs, but I have never wanted to train them and pushing them to the fullest extent of their abilities is just not something I'm interested in doing.

Kim_MacMillan

snownose

I am way too busy with having a life and making sure when rescues come in that all get along, you know having a good pack environment, that I don't think it is very important to teach a dog how to close a drawer....

I dunno though....don't you think that having a little helper cleaning up behind you would save you that much more time? ;-) If you didn't have to shut the drawer then you'd have time for something else. When Gaci cleans up her own toys, that means that I don't have to. When she shuts her own kennel door, it's one more thing that I don't have to do! Heck, I can have her opening the closet so that by the time I get there I just have to pull my shirt of the hanger! Heck, important, why aren't we ALL doing these things to make our lives easier? *G*

 

 

 

 

Note.......this was meant as a little humor to lighten things up a bit.

 

 

Fun.  Name of rthe game.  Don't you think Sequoyah has fun cleaning up all the tennis balls after play group?  Only thing I'm not sure of is whether she actually has fun putting the f-r-i-s-b-e-e back into the toy bin.  She does it, but I'm sure she'd rather dive back in for it.

 

Kim_MacMillan

Heck, important, why aren't we ALL doing these things to make our lives easier?

 

When they can make dinner, do a couple loads of laundry and load the dishwasher (and I don't mean just lick the plates!), you'll have me convinced it's something to look into, okay? LOL

Angelique, that is a fascinating interview. Very good! Thanks!  

Kim_MacMillan

It's not the end of the world though if you never have a dog that offers behaviours. I've said before they are NOT dogs for everybody, and I wouldn't think badly of somebody whose dog didn't offer behaviours a lot (unless the dog didn't offer any behaviours at all, because everything other than the desired behaviour was punished away)! I simply said that there was an obvious difference between dogs who think creatively and those who don't have an excess of creative behaviour.

 

I think what you might consider "Offering a behavior" can be looked at from many different angles.....what makes you think my dogs don't offer behavior? What I think my dogs offer might not be the same as what you feel that means......but, I tell you what....when walking out in the boonies with live cattle across the road, wildlife all around us and my dogs stick close to me.....that is what I call offering something.....