What makes YOU a positive trainer?

For me positive training was a necessity.  We had always trained our dogs with somewhat harsh training for many decades, it always worked for "those" dogs (not really harsh like rolls or things like that, but chokers, collar corrections and training by punishment/praise, train to heal you do spins and cut the dog off etc). 

Anyway, when I rescued my non socialized Rottweiler with too many issues to count the training we had success with for many decades was actually escalating her aggression and shutting her down making her unpredictable.  I know if it wasn't for positive training I would have had to euthanize her or find her a home with someone who really understood aggression.  Also having soft dogs teaches you about positive training and all of our Newfoundland dogs would shut down with any type of negative training, so they teach you a lot about the benefits of positive only.  With my Dobe Beau you had to be positive with him, he had many issues when I found him on the side of the road.  For everything from touching paws, to patting head to sudden movements had to be taken slow with lots of praise and positive training.  Beau could have been a dog that would have become flighty aggressive and unpredictable with any harsh training and he wouldn't have responded possibly shutting down instead.  For the 1st year barely anyone could touch him, now he is the best dog for anything for Vets etc.  I look back and it's hard to believe this is the same dog.

Athena is my biggest success and proof of how wonderful positive training is.  She went from a dog that bullied my own poor mother.  She attacked my Sister and I both in a highly aggressive manner (I loved that leather jacket she tore apart!!).  I saw how edgy and sneaky she was getting with any sort of harsh training and then to have my behaviorist explain to me what I was doing wrong and how Athena was being affected really opened my eyes.  I saw a dog go from being suppressed, sneaky, aggressive, bully to a sweet lovable wanting to please type dog.  I had my mother help train her and the difference in their relationship was mind blowing!  I watched a dog going down hill fast on harsh training to being sweet, lovable and learning with positive only training.  I will never use any harsh training with my dogs ever again as I have seen with difference the training makes in a dog.   This is what makes me a positive trainer.

The one positive training exercise I really have been most amazed at is the "off" and "take it" which I learned with Athena at a Canine Aggression seminar we attended.  We taught this in a positive manner and that training has stuck with Athena for all these years.  If she has a RMB and I need to take it away I just say "off" and she literally spits it out and wagging her tail because she knows that good things are coming.  This is a dog that was a big resource gaurding when I first got her!! If she had a bone when I first rescued her you didn't go near her she was that bad.  Now she is so at ease and knows that although something may be taken away it will be given back or she will get something better, even if that something is a walk.  She is also so at ease now that she can chew RMB's with all the other dogs with no issues.  It's neat to have 6 dogs and no resource gaurding!!! well, except Dilon our male Newf every once in awhile, but it's harder to train a dog that lived his first 2 or 3 years in a kennel with other food aggressive Newf's and he learned to gaurd his food in that environment.  But, every year he keeps getting better.  All dogs eat side by side and after they finish they all go around licking everyone else's dish and there are no freak outs etc.  Dilon only gets owly when he has a bone & he has improved a great deal while living with us.

snownose

spiritdogs

As to the question of servitude, I suspect that my dogs, whatever behaviors they are trained to do, consider it all a fun game, and are not at all victims of oppression.  Do you consider your husbands, wives, or children to be servants because they know how to pick up after themselves or shut a door?  Didn't you have to "train" your children to wash behind their ears or tie their shoelaces?   You didn't ridicule them for being talented  enough to learn those skills, I hope.

 

DH and I do what needs to be done to keep things running smoothly.......I can't speak for the children part...........I expect my dogs to fit into this household by behaving and showing respect to me, DH and the house we live in and the property we own.....I realize it is my responsibility to show them what I want of them.....I, personally see no gain from having them perform tricks....I am perfectly happy with how things are....and maybe I should ask them if  roaming in the woods with me, chasing a four wheeler or other fun things is more to their liking compared to sneezing on command or shutting drawers.....

I think you are making an erroneous assumption that positive trainers do not ALSO have their dogs roam the woods, or the beaches, for that matter.  I think chasing four wheelers (or any powered vehicle) is a dangerous habit for herding dogs to get into, so I don't have them do that, but they can chase a squirrel or a bird if they like.  The fact that they do things like sneeze on command or push a drawer shut is no different than anyone else's dog picking out the correct scent article in an obedience test.  It's all just learned behavior.  So, despite the fact that you try to ridicule it, it's really all just behavior, and can be learned or modified, and it's up to every dog owner to teach their own dogs the skills they want their dogs to know.  I don't particularly want my dogs to pull me on rollerblades, but a husky owner might like that.  I might prefer to have my dogs do scent games, or agility.  But, the topic of the thread is what makes us positive trainers (on the way to getting our dogs to do those things which we have decided upon as the skillset we wish them to have).

As to the trainer who thought that FIC should BE the cookie, that's really fine, so long as the DOG thinks you are the cookie and wants to work just for your approval.  For most people, that means being incredibly interesting and being a 10 when the environment scores a 9.  But, if the dog would prefer to work for a favorite toy, or for liver, that does not mean you aren't the cookie, because you ARE the provider of all the resources that your dog wants.  Unfortunately, many people confuse that, and believe that their mere presence is supposed to be reinforcing - you will often hear such people tell you that the dog should work for you because he wants to - my question is why would he want to?  What's in it for the dog?  In an environment where not much else is going on, or if you have a velcro breed (try convincing a bulldog to work for just you) that works.  But, really, it's what the dog decides is a reinforcer that makes the most sense to use as a motivator.  You are nice, but you holding a fifty dollar bill in your hand just for me is even nicer.  That does not mean that you can't frequently be the reinforcement, just that for new or difficult behavior, it pays to up the ante a bit and add a reinforcer that the dog is really gaga for.  For most dogs, that means food, but it doesn't have to.  The essence of positive training, however, is to find a motivator (any motivator) that the dog is willing to work for, use it to reinforce behavior that you want, ignore behavior you don't want (until it extinguishes), jackpot any behavior that comes at a "lightbulb moment", and fade the reinforcer onto a schedule of intermittent (or variable) reinforcement.  The use of punishment is kept at a minimum, if it's ever even used, and for the most part, it isn't necessary.  Most positive trainers that I have met do use a "no reward marker", and that can be any word, but it is informational only, and not spoken harshly.  If you do have to interrupt behavior because there is a danger to the dog, or to a human, then obviously, you do what you need to do.  But, in true positive or clicker training, the need for that is negligible, and quite out of proportion to the seeming necessity some people feel for defending it.
 

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Maybe you're right, but they will almost certainly do it while telling you how balanced or positive they are themselves.     I do think, however, that even when the discussions get "spirited", that there is value in the argument, and that people who are new to dog training and behavior can use the philosophical pro's and con's to help them decide what kind of relationship they want with their own dogs in terms of training.  So, despite the fact that some threads get started just to instigate, or that some are started as yet another us versus them battlefield, or go hopelessly OT, my guess is that the average member of this forum is smart enough to pick through it all, take what they need, and leave what they don't.  It's a discussion forum, and we should expect discussion, whether we agree with what's said or not.   

spiritdogs, I also thought that was a very good post. content deleted

sd, I wish I could be the cookie (I love that image! LOL) but sadly, most of the time, I'm a 7-9 while the environment (or ball or rope or other input) is the 10.

My only question (and it is a real question, not meant to instigate but to educate - me) I have about your entire post is what do you mean by this?  

spiritdogs

But, in true positive or clicker training, the need for that is negligible

You have used this phrase several times and I have asked about it, but have yet to see an explanation or understand what this phrase actually means when you say it. Are you implying that positive and clicker training are the same thing? Perhaps another thread is necessary...

I'll start that.  

spiritdogs

  I think chasing four wheelers (or any powered vehicle) is a dangerous habit for herding dogs to get into, so I don't have them do that, but they can chase a squirrel or a bird if they like.

My dogs run behind the four wheeler....we just cruise through the woods....nothing dangerous to it....if I had them herding cattle they could be trampled or kicked....

spiritdogs

So, despite the fact that you try to ridicule it,

I didn't ridicule it....I just said I see no need for it, now, if you feel that is your cup of tea.....fine......isn't positive training also about having a positive experience with one's dogs.....to me it is.....that is how we...me/dogs enjoy our lives.....

Without us around, dogs offer the environment behaviors all the time. If they didn't, they would not be able to survive. They do something creative and see if it gets them something that they need or want. We control their environment to the extent that we become the salient feature of their environment and that to which they offer behaviors in order to get what they need or want. Your dogs do it too, I am sure. You just call it something else. You call it NILIF or training or the result of your pack leadership. But your dogs are always offering behaviors (just sitting quietly and unobtrusively is still a behavior) to you, the most important feature of their environment, in order to get them something they need or want (attention, food, let out the door, taken for a walk, safety from something they perceive as dangerous, etc...). If you are against dogs offering behaviors to get the things they want, best to get rid of NILIF right now, because that is all it is.

There are a huge number of things that are not natural to dogs that we expect them to do. I assure you eating garbage is quite natural to dogs, yet we train our dogs not to do that.  That ain't natural folks. Dogs are opportunistic scavengers and we constantly foil their scavenging instincts and expect them to ignore that instinct in favor of the various things we've trained them to do instead: wait for their meals out of a bowl, stay out of the garbage, stay off the counters and don't steal perfectly good unattended food off of tables.

FourIsCompany

You have used this phrase several times and I have asked about it, but have yet to see an explanation or understand what this phrase actually means when you say it. Are you implying that positive and clicker training are the same thing? Perhaps another thread is necessary...

I'll start that.  

Please, not another one!  I dont even know why there is two already, its so confusing and they overlap so much.... Whats the new one going to be "So what is TRUE positive training?"  It will be exactly the same as this one!  Can't we just get off the merry go round now?  I don't see how spiritdogs could have been any clearer with that statement.... By that very statement you can tell what is meant by "true" positive training - a method which uses punishment only rarely and as a last resort.  Good grief, that has to have been said about 20 times in about a dozen different ways.... I don't think it could be any plainer....  What's this recent obsession with defining "positive training" anyway? 

Houndlove....is your post directed at me?

If it is, I agree....my dogs offer something all the time.....if you read all my posts you will find that I agree with that.....I gave an example....walking my dogs.....in a very active environment they stick close to me......well, you can see that in my pic below

FourIsCompany

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I don't consider calling traditional training old school a barb. Just as I don't consider calling clicker training positive a barb, it is what it is. If we are all completely comfortable with what we are doing that statement should offend no one.  What is missing here is anyone actually giving merit to another way of doing something. Instead it is a word by word dissection of any positive trainer's post. I don't remember which post but they actually said in not so many words "clicker training is only good for tricks". If that isn't old school nothing is! That is why I have not contributed to the conversation. And since that is the way I see it I will stay out of this post completely.

Deepest apologies to those offended! 

Chuffy

Please, not another one! 

Chuffy, You don't have to be involved. Step off the merry-go-round. I'd like to hear what various people think. spiritdogs included. And I started it in an effort to comply with the moderator's request here:

glenmar

Moderators note:  on page 6 I asked that this thread be kept on topic.  Two plus pages later it still hasn't happened.  Instead we have sniping and name calling going on still.  Teaching tasks around home, "parlor tricks", etc, really aren't the topic here.

This is my last request that this thread remain on topic.

snownose

If it is, I agree....my dogs offer something all the time.....if you read all my posts you will find that I agree with that.....I gave an example....walking my dogs.....in a very active environment they stick close to me......well, you can see that in my pic below

I don't see you in the pic... I am guessing you are behind the camera.

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs, I also thought that was a very good post.

One comment that I will make is that the post did not mention the dog's need.  It seem to put human needs over the dog's.  My definition of a postive trainer includes knowing and satisfying the survival, basic, instinctual, breed, and social needs.  To ignore those needs puts the dog at some risk of compulsive obsessive behavior and maybe cause emotional harm.    

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And vice versa. If I say that I use corrections, there are people who also come in and discredit it. There are also people that tell me that I am NOT a positive trainer because I am still willing to give corrections, even though the way that I train dogs carries many of the positive methods. Its is all opinion and this particular topic is one that evokes much emotion, stubbornness, and unwillingness to budge and accept another's reasoning or train of thought.

spiritdogs

I think you are making an erroneous assumption that positive trainers do not ALSO have their dogs roam the woods, or the beaches, for that matter.

Yep, I'm a positive trainer, and my dogs go on off leash hikes in our regional parks (see my pics posted from our walk last weekend with the cows!), and on the beach, and have been doing so since they were 4 months old.  

spiritdogs

As to the trainer who thought that FIC should BE the cookie, that's really fine, so long as the DOG thinks you are the cookie and wants to work just for your approval.  For most people, that means being incredibly interesting and being a 10 when the environment scores a 9.  But, if the dog would prefer to work for a favorite toy, or for liver, that does not mean you aren't the cookie, because you ARE the provider of all the resources that your dog wants.  Unfortunately, many people confuse that, and believe that their mere presence is supposed to be reinforcing - you will often hear such people tell you that the dog should work for you because he wants to - my question is why would he want to?  What's in it for the dog?  In an environment where not much else is going on, or if you have a velcro breed (try convincing a bulldog to work for just you) that works.  But, really, it's what the dog decides is a reinforcer that makes the most sense to use as a motivator.  You are nice, but you holding a fifty dollar bill in your hand just for me is even nicer.  That does not mean that you can't frequently be the reinforcement, just that for new or difficult behavior, it pays to up the ante a bit and add a reinforcer that the dog is really gaga for.  For most dogs, that means food, but it doesn't have to.  The essence of positive training, however, is to find a motivator (any motivator) that the dog is willing to work for, use it to reinforce behavior that you want, ignore behavior you don't want (until it extinguishes), jackpot any behavior that comes at a "lightbulb moment", and fade the reinforcer onto a schedule of intermittent (or variable) reinforcement.  The use of punishment is kept at a minimum, if it's ever even used, and for the most part, it isn't necessary.  Most positive trainers that I have met do use a "no reward marker", and that can be any word, but it is informational only, and not spoken harshly.  If you do have to interrupt behavior because there is a danger to the dog, or to a human, then obviously, you do what you need to do.  But, in true positive or clicker training, the need for that is negligible, and quite out of proportion to the seeming necessity some people feel for defending it.

Great post! I've always used a no reward marker because I think it's essential to give your dog as much feedback as possible during training. Simply ignoring unwanted behavior isn't always enough. Saying "oops!" and not rewarding tells the dog "not that, try again". As spiritdogs points out there ARE times when more force is required, (danger to the dog, the human, or the CAT in my case), and I have no problem applying it when necessary, but like her, I've found that the more foundation of positive training I've done with the dog, the less often it will be necessary. I also like to teach my dogs attention focusing exercises that I can use as a distraction tool - "watch", look at me, "find it", look for treats on the floor, and "touch", touch nose to my palm. Find it is particularly useful, and I've used it to stop my dogs from charging the cat, and to get back a dog that got outside and was running off down the street.