Stopping Gargabe Collection & Countersurfing (no punishment allowed)

 Can we define the difference between a "highly effective motivator" and "obsession" here? Obsessive-compulsive disorders are found in dogs so I don't think it's a term that should be thrown around lightly just as another word for "something my dog really likes a lot."

I have to say I agree with Houndlove a heck of a lot on many of the recent posts, without picking out anything specific.

 I have always, on many many posts, spoke about how important it was to fulfill a dog's needs - good food, fresh water, social interaction (with both people and other dogs), safety, comfort, security, stability, understanding (via teacin how to survive in a social world), good medical care, fair treatment, opportunity for play, safe toys available. And yes, in fulfilling a dog's needs you almost always will solve a lot of issues in the home. We have some dogs here that have little more teaching than to sit and to walk nicely on a leash. But they are some of the most well behaved dogs there is when it comes to manners and overall behaviour. They are amazing really, so I understand how important simply fulfilling a dog's needs can be.

But there is a difference also between fulfilling a dog's needs and fulfilling a dog's wants as well. There are lots of things dogs want that they don't need, just like any species. Humans are not the only ones that have wants and desires that may not be optimal for them. To think that because you are satisfying. Food is sometimes one of those wants. You could provide for every need that the animal has, and then some, and still have a dog that just likes to eat food. I'm sorry if I have to say that I doubt there is no teaching going on in DPU's house to keep dogs doing (or not doing) certain things. And that I completely doubt that just because all of those needs are met, that the dogs act like perfect model citizens by nature. That's just not how dogs work. No matter how their needs are fulfilled, they aren't going to understand human society without some teaching. Perhaps they don't countersurf (lots of foody dogs don't countersurf and never have......) or garbage raid (we have never had a garbage raider, even when the garbage WAS in the home.....and we never needed to teach them to stay out of it...but all of our dogs are foody dogs). Even something as simple as teaching the dogs that "you don't touch what's not yours" is still teaching dogs limits. Or teaching dogs that "these things ARE yours" is teaching dogs limits. So there is still teaching going on, whether or not you want to brush it off to some sort of "leadership" or "need fulfilling".

I couldn't agree more that it's so crucial to put a dog's needs first. But that's not the only thing that dogs are going to need to live healthy, happy lives in society. The point here is, I'm sure you have a great relationship with your dogs, and that your dogs live a nice happy life. But I'm sure that the others here do too, and just because their dogs love food doesn't mean there is something lacking or there is a need they are "missing". It might, but it might not. And it doesn't make them any lesser people or dogparents because of it. I couldn't be more happy with the relationship with my dogs, but I'm still not going to leave a roast on my coffee table and leave the dogs alone with it (hmmm....would you leave a roast on the coffee table all day DPU?...this is a genuine question, not a poke). Just as I wouldn't leave a toddler alone with a dog, or a toddler alone with something electrical.......contrary, rather than "not trusting dogs", it's more a matter or knowing what dogs ARE (the same as knowing what toddlers are), and why they do the things they do, and not setting them up for temptation in the first place, because it's not about trust, it's about knowing what dogs are.

DPU

I thought the bet was I leave an unattended roast chicken on my counter and then see if any of the dogs would go after it.

No I said MY dogs would not countersurf for milk bones either.  But leave a roast chicken out....  I was referencing MY dogs.  No one elses. 

For the record, I do trust my dogs.  For a given value of the word "trust".  Just because I trust them doesn't mean I leave them alone with my son for example.  Just because I trust them doesn't mean I leave temptation out for them for the sake of it.  I had a some what Christian upbringing and it is still ingrained in me that to leave temptation for others is a sin in itself.

Besides, I operate under the maxim "Make it easy for your dog to succeed".  Leaving food out under his nose and expecting him not to touch it does not constitute "making it easy for him to succeed" in my book.  Besides, will he be happy and contented with something delectable yet forbidden left temptingly within reach?  For a helluva lot of dogs, its just easier and pleasanter all round to put the "temptation" away where they cannot get to it. 

Thats not to say I micromanage my house... just a few things that they are most likely to slip up on and/or the things that are unsafe for them to ingest (which is sometimes the same thing).  Like, I wont put EVERYTHING out of williams reach, I will teach him to leave things alone.  But I won't leave the cord from the hot iron dangling down for him to grab at either, nor will I leave cutlery and jugs of water next to power points, just to prove what a great parent I am and how much control I have over my child.  It's not a battle I choose to engage in. 

DPU, I think you do a lot more training than you realize. And I suspect your resident dogs provide a lot of training for incoming fosters in "this is how we behave in this household". You provide a lot more than just meeting the dog's basic needs.  

 OK, DPU, and anyone else who trusts their dogs, so does that mean you are going to leave a nice, juicy, smelly, half-carved chicken carcass on the counter when you go to sleep tonight???  I have never had any of my dogs steal food from my counters, but that doesn't mean that it would never occur to them to do so if I kept blatantly tempting them night after night just to prove that I trust them.  Sure, I've accidentally left stuff out where they could have gotten it, and I've never been disappointed.  But, would I intentionally do so for the sheer purpose of testing them?  No.  Why?  Because "intermittent reinforcement", especially with a powerful motivator, is what makes a behavior (in this case, surfing the counter) repeat itself.  Therefore, I am proactive about trying to manage the environment so that my dogs never get that reinforcement for going where they shouldn't.  Common sense.  This has everything to do with learning, and nothing whatsoever to do with trust or lack thereof.  Just my two cents.

Kim_MacMillan

 I have always, on many many posts, spoke about how important it was to fulfill a dog's needs - good food, fresh water, social interaction (with both people and other dogs), safety, comfort, security, stability, understanding (via teacin how to survive in a social world), good medical care, fair treatment, opportunity for play, safe toys available. And yes, in fulfilling a dog's needs you almost always will solve a lot of issues in the home.

Thank you for making my point.  I know in a previous post you stated you don't have the problem stated by the OP but not sure if you ever had to deal with.  I may also add to your statement that if the dogs natural needs are satified then it may also reduce the effort to modify the unwanted behavior.  I think a dog's natural needs have to be satified in order to have a well balanced dog.  I agree that a dog's WANTS might not always be good for the dog or tolerable to the human.  But I also believe you do not have to use punishment or trick or deprive the dog of the want.  What I think is happening to me is I am strengthening the dog to dog and dog to human relationship, making the dog as part of a social group be the highest reward.  It is then logical to me that other rewards would be reduced so long as the basic natural needs are met. 

With regards to your challenge with leaving a roast beef on the coffee table unattended all day, I would probably have no problem with that so long as I am home.  You see when I home, all the dogs have free reign of the house but they chose to stay by me.  So I know if I leave the roast beef on the kitchen counter the dog would have to leave the group and go to the kitchen and I know for sure that would not happen.  As I have stated twice already, one dane's meals is 3lbs of cooked beef, veggies, rice, herbs, and the food is place in a large bowl big enough for four snouts to fit.  After I place the dog dishes in the dog's spot, I go to the second floor to brush my teeth and blowdry my hair.  Perfect opportunity for the 4 other dogs to go after the beef.  Doesn't happen. 

Of course there is training and some instructions here.  Right now, the new foster, Paganini a Chow mix, is being trained to eventually eat with the group.  She is initially isolated and I am teaching her how to eat and how much to eat.

And one more time, MY DOGS ENJOY FOOD.

Admin Note.......

Can the bickering stop now, please?  Thanks.

spiritdogs

 OK, DPU, and anyone else who trusts their dogs, so does that mean you are going to leave a nice, juicy, smelly, half-carved chicken carcass on the counter when you go to sleep tonight???  I have never had any of my dogs steal food from my counters, but that doesn't mean that it would never occur to them to do so if I kept blatantly tempting them night after night just to prove that I trust them.  Sure, I've accidentally left stuff out where they could have gotten it, and I've never been disappointed.  But, would I intentionally do so for the sheer purpose of testing them?  No.  Why?  Because "intermittent reinforcement", especially with a powerful motivator, is what makes a behavior (in this case, surfing the counter) repeat itself.  Therefore, I am proactive about trying to manage the environment so that my dogs never get that reinforcement for going where they shouldn't.  Common sense.  This has everything to do with learning, and nothing whatsoever to do with trust or lack thereof.  Just my two cents.

Yes Spritdogs I would trust my dogs because as I stated in the previous post, that would mean they would have to leave the group.  You make a good point by stating to use "Common Sense".  This is what I think I am doing and trying to keep it simple because if its complicated it will be harder for the dog to understand plus I believe the dog would adjust and another undesirable behavior would surface. 

A while back I observed my dogs in play.  I watched how they would play with the tug-o-war toy.  In order for the toy to be fun, two dogs had to play.  One dog loved to play the game and would dangle the toy in front of the other dogs to grab the other end.  After several tries of trying to entice the other dogs to play with no takers, the toy was discarded.  I noticed that the toy is only used to play the game.  It is a perfect chew, shake, toss toy but that is not how the dog's use it.  So I started associating all objects with a group event...toys, bed, and food, etc.  My logic, the food doesn't matter but the combination of the food and being part of a group event makes the food the sweetest.  Anyway, all this may sound silly but in thinking this way, I am successful in eliminating resource guarding, DA, and other unwanted behaviors by using what I consider the most gentlest form of training.

To respond to Houndlove.  My dogs are not perfect.  What I do focus on, I attempt to perfect and try to improve on what is working.  I still have problems like leash reactivity, pulling, grooming, etc.  I consider getting a handle on food the first priority in transitioning a foster dog into my home.

DPU

I go to the second floor to brush my teeth and blowdry my hair

Thank you for that image!!!  That has made me giggle uncontrollably for some reason! 

Thank you for both posts, I think I understand better where you are coming from.  And it sounds like you have answered the OP.... you've used a totally positive, non punishment method of training to prevent/stop countersurfing and bin raiding.  A bit like ron2... you have made being with you (you could say this is an alternate desirable incompatible behaviour) more rewarding than looking for mischief... whether that be food on counters or stray socks. 

DPU

spiritdogs

 OK, DPU, and anyone else who trusts their dogs, so does that mean you are going to leave a nice, juicy, smelly, half-carved chicken carcass on the counter when you go to sleep tonight???  I have never had any of my dogs steal food from my counters, but that doesn't mean that it would never occur to them to do so if I kept blatantly tempting them night after night just to prove that I trust them.  Sure, I've accidentally left stuff out where they could have gotten it, and I've never been disappointed.  But, would I intentionally do so for the sheer purpose of testing them?  No.  Why?  Because "intermittent reinforcement", especially with a powerful motivator, is what makes a behavior (in this case, surfing the counter) repeat itself.  Therefore, I am proactive about trying to manage the environment so that my dogs never get that reinforcement for going where they shouldn't.  Common sense.  This has everything to do with learning, and nothing whatsoever to do with trust or lack thereof.  Just my two cents.

Yes Spritdogs I would trust my dogs because as I stated in the previous post, that would mean they would have to leave the group.  You make a good point by stating to use "Common Sense".  This is what I think I am doing and trying to keep it simple because if its complicated it will be harder for the dog to understand plus I believe the dog would adjust and another undesirable behavior would surface. 

A while back I observed my dogs in play.  I watched how they would play with the tug-o-war toy.  In order for the toy to be fun, two dogs had to play.  One dog loved to play the game and would dangle the toy in front of the other dogs to grab the other end.  After several tries of trying to entice the other dogs to play with no takers, the toy was discarded.  I noticed that the toy is only used to play the game.  It is a perfect chew, shake, toss toy but that is not how the dog's use it.  So I started associating all objects with a group event...toys, bed, and food, etc.  My logic, the food doesn't matter but the combination of the food and being part of a group event makes the food the sweetest.  Anyway, all this may sound silly but in thinking this way, I am successful in eliminating resource guarding, DA, and other unwanted behaviors by using what I consider the most gentlest form of training.

To respond to Houndlove.  My dogs are not perfect.  What I do focus on, I attempt to perfect and try to improve on what is working.  I still have problems like leash reactivity, pulling, grooming, etc.  I consider getting a handle on food the first priority in transitioning a foster dog into my home.

I think the point was not what any of our dogs would do when we are present, but, rather, how to keep them from helping themselves to the roast beef or the chicken carcass if we are not there, either to stop them, or in the case of your dogs, to engage their attention more meaningfully than  the roast beef aroma wafting in from another room.  

I think the question others might ask is whether you also trust your dogs if you accidentally leave the roast beef on the counter and then leave the house for a while. 

spiritdogs

 OK, DPU, and anyone else who trusts their dogs, so does that mean you are going to leave a nice, juicy, smelly, half-carved chicken carcass on the counter when you go to sleep tonight???  I have never had any of my dogs steal food from my counters, but that doesn't mean that it would never occur to them to do so if I kept blatantly tempting them night after night just to prove that I trust them.  Sure, I've accidentally left stuff out where they could have gotten it, and I've never been disappointed.  But, would I intentionally do so for the sheer purpose of testing them?  No.  Why?  Because "intermittent reinforcement", especially with a powerful motivator, is what makes a behavior (in this case, surfing the counter) repeat itself.  Therefore, I am proactive about trying to manage the environment so that my dogs never get that reinforcement for going where they shouldn't.  Common sense.  This has everything to do with learning, and nothing whatsoever to do with trust or lack thereof.  Just my two cents.

Done that with the chicken carcass.  Not intentionally, but we've forgotten to clean up after dinner a few times and the chicken remains untouched.  I wouldn't expect this of every dog, but Sasha is excellent about the kitchen counters.  She has never once, in her lifetime, stolen from the counters.  And she is *always* hungry.  

I'll leave one up tonight, if you'd like.  I'll even leave it up all day tomorrow.  I am 99% sure Sasha wouldn't touch it. She would come and bug me endlessly about it, though. And yes, I could leave the house and she wouldn't bother the food on the counter.  If the cats knocked it onto the floor, it'd be fair game.

Dog_ma

I'll leave one up tonight, if you'd like.  I'll even leave it up all day tomorrow.  I am 99% sure Sasha wouldn't touch it. She would come and bug me endlessly about it, though. And yes, I could leave the house and she wouldn't bother the food on the counter.  If the cats knocked it onto the floor, it'd be fair game

How was that accomplished? Did you implement training? What kind? Or is Sasha just that way? I think that might help the question in the OP, especially if you used a +R method.

ron2

Dog_ma

I'll leave one up tonight, if you'd like.  I'll even leave it up all day tomorrow.  I am 99% sure Sasha wouldn't touch it. She would come and bug me endlessly about it, though. And yes, I could leave the house and she wouldn't bother the food on the counter.  If the cats knocked it onto the floor, it'd be fair game

 

How was that accomplished? Did you implement training? What kind? Or is Sasha just that way? I think that might help the question in the OP, especially if you used a +R method.

I think it is a combination of training and Sasha's personality.  I don't expect my next dog to be as great as she is.  It'd be great if he is, but I'm not counting on it.

I used a similar technique to mudpuppy.  As a pup, she was taught that anything in the house is only hers if formally presented to her.  For example, there are stuffed animals all around (my daughters), but she will not shred a stuffed animal or toy unless I've "given" it to her.

But, food is food and food is a tremendous primary reinforcer. The fact that Sasha is so trustworthy is due to her and not me.  She's highly pack oriented, and great about the house rules.  The pack orientation is also why she'll follow the cats' lead in mischief. If the cats give her permission, it's cool right? Ha!

Ivan, on the other hand, was great about counters when we were around, but I'm fairly sure he would have snaked a chicken carcass if we left the house.  He was always crated for that, because he would also have eaten the cats if we'd have let him. 

Dog_ma

The fact that Sasha is so trustworthy is due to her and not me.  She's highly pack oriented, and great about the house rules. 

In my house, this is the reason my dogs are so trustworthy. Dog_ma, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit for being the leader of your pack and having a dog who sees you that way, because of how YOU are. I believe that dogs are naturally "pack-oriented", and if we are as well, and make the house rules clear and simple, some really cool things can happen.

I believe that because I see it.  

 I also think a lot of this has to do with breed and early learning.  The Lab or hound left to his own devices, that didn't have either some form of formal training, or the kind of conditioning that Sasha had (all the stuff belongs to the human unless it's given), might be more likely to access the counters than some other less food motivated types.  Dogs learn all the time, so we can influence them even in subtle ways.  But, in my experience, the dogs that are most reliable about not countersurfing are those that learned the lessons in puppyhood, or at the beginning of their association with their human, and not the ones that we try to deal with remedially.  Of course, it can be done, but once a dog has learned that the good stuff is up there, and he can reach it, it's much harder to convince him to stay away, especially once you are not in the room.