Stopping Gargabe Collection & Countersurfing (no punishment allowed)

lostcoyote

What +R techniques would you use to stop and prevent a dog from getting into the garbage?

and

What +R techniques would you use to stop and prevent a dog from countersurfing?

positive reward techniques only.... no remore controlled sirens in the garbage can, or electrically charged tape allowed along the countertop allowed in these techniques.

 

assuming that putting the garbage away where the dog cannot get to it is not an option

yep - i went back and edited that requirement into my OP

Managing the situation is obviously the easiest way to prevent this from ever happening.

Methinks this is a loaded question.

glenmar

Methinks this is a loaded question.

 

That I agree with.

It may not be a loaded question, but it is a trick question, and here's why:

The definition of positive reinforcement is rewarding the dog to increase the chances of the behavior being repeated. The garbage and the counter-surfing are not behaviors you want repeated. Decreasing behaviors is the realm of punishment, either positive or negative. Getting into the garbage is already giving the dog +R for doing it again--it's self-rewarding. If you were really hell-bent on having the dogs loose in the house at all times even when alone, and didn't want to move the garbage, I'd say making getting in to the garbage go from being a +R experience (which it is just by itself) to a +P experience could be what is called for. The trick is to make the garbage itself administer the punishment, not you. You administering the punishment makes YOU punishing, not the garbage. The garbage is still fabulously rewarding and when you're not around to administer a punishment, it's pure gravy. You can make the garbage punishing by booby-trapping it. I just had the completely wicked thought of sprinkling a little cayenne pepper across the top of the garbage underneath the lid. That would be mighty punishing and it's the garbage doing it, not you. Funny story: the very first day we brought our very first dog home from the pound, one of the first things we did when we got back home was make lunch for ourselves. We made very very spicy Korean ramen noodle soup. We set our bowls of soup down on a low coffee table and our new dog walked right up to one of them and took a big slurp. That soup punished the heck out of him! Not only was the temperature really hot, but it was crazy spicy and he made quite the face after slurping it, and never ever again tried to eat anything we set down on a table and walked away from.

The problem is that punishments have side-effects and dogs are superstitious by nature, but if you're unwilling to just manage the environment so it's not even an issue, that's the lump  you have to take.

Me? I manage the environment and scaffold the dogs into having a less managed environment the longer they build up a trustworthy track record.  Marlowe was not alone with the garbage for months after we first got him because I never wanted him to get the positive reinforcement for getting in to it. There's objects all over the house that the dogs don't even think twice about because they've never been rewarding and I wanted the garbage can to also be on that list. Why should the garbage can be any different from the lamp in the corner? So I manage the heck out of that thing for a long time until they see it so much when I am around and never get a reward from it that they assume that it's just as non-rewarding as the lamp. But I still don't tempt fate.  I don't leave the dogs out free-run of the house alone (I mean, totally alone as in no one is home) for long periods. If I did do that, I'd put the garbage away. But any time anyone is anywhere on our property, inside or out, awake or asleep, the dogs are free-run and they don't get in the garbage, and both are complete ridiculous nosey chow-hounds so I must have done something right.

 

I'm still going to give it a try.

If am there and catch him, I recall because the drippy beef I have is, without any doubt, more rewarding than licking a wrapper. And because I use leftovers for jackpot training, there's no meat in the trash. I would keep repeating as necessary until it was classical that leaving the trashcan alone is more rewarding. Why dig when the human just hands it to me?

If I come home and find the trash rummaged, I will not punish him, even if were to later booby trap the garbage, which is punishment. Why? Because, as we all know, punishment has to happen during the event or no later than 1 to 1.5 seconds from the event. If I punish him when I get home, he just learns that me returning is punishing. I think the +R could work, and certainly worth a try. I've called off and he offed in mid-snarl with another dog. I've called off while he was chasing the cat, which is also self-rewarding. Because I make an excellent brisket.

But I don't have to. He leaves the garbage can alone. I can leave a bag on the floor with only half a square knot and he won't bother it. It could be the luck of the Irish. Or me, not the trash can as the source of all wonderful things. Or both.

 

i had no intent of loading these questions nor do i have an interest in posting trick questions. i am interested in finding out if there is a positiuve reward technique available to prevent dogs from doing these 2 things. i am not interested in a debate, nor am i interested in tearing apart what anyone may suggest. i simply want to read what other people have to say. i think dgriego goes along with this as well, as it pertains to countersurfing. thanks in advance.

okay houndlove, i see my mistake. i have edited the OP post by removing (+R) and replaced it with (non-punishment) and i do see that it is still errouneous after the latest edit as well... hopefully, people will know what it infers - and perhaps you hit the nail on the head by removing the human from the punishment...... still, i wish to see if there is a non-punishment methid - at least in peoples minds.

okay houndlove, i see my mistake. does this mean that there is no reward training technique available?

I don't think it's possible. You can't teach a dog NOT to do something that they are inclined to do without letting them know the thing you don't want them to do. You can distract them with every manner of thing, but if they run across that garbage even 2 years down the line and they're bored and something looks interesting, they're going to go for it. Unless they've been taught NOT to.

Just my opinion.

FourIsCompany

You can distract them with every manner of thing, but if they run across that garbage even 2 years down the line and they're bored and something looks interesting, they're going to go for it. Unless they've been taught NOT to.

Just my opinion.

And also...out on the street or someone else's home or a new situation...you'd need to always be alert and not depend on your dog knowing it means ALL things, in ALL situations.

all goes back to being an aware owner and managing those aspects of the environment you can.

rwbeagles

you'd need to always be alert and not depend on your dog knowing it means ALL things, in ALL situations.

 

But there are ways to teach your dog to be dependable with ALL things in ALL situations, there is nothing better than to be relaxed because your dog knows all the boundaries and you dont really need to have all those "is the trash bag open?, is the bathroom door closed? are my shoes inside the closet?" thoughts on the back of your mind every day

Not to think about that and know you have a reliable dog because you showed him what not to do is like being in heaven, and 80% of the times i didnt even had to touch my dog to make her realize that anyways 

FourIsCompany

Unless they've been taught NOT to

 

The same sketchy future could apply to punishment. I used to get punished for playing in the dirt and climbing on fences. Now, I get paid to work in the dirt and climb into a bucket and go way up in the air.

You can teach a dog to not do something with punishment, even with environmental punishment but does that lesson stick forever? And why can't a +R lesson not stick forever? Obviously, the +R of trash diving creates the possibility of it happening again? What about providing a greater reward than whatever is in there to avoid that object? To me, avoiding the trash can is a behavior to execute, just as if it were a long distance recall, or jumping a dog jump or running through a barrel. The avoidance is a behavior to be accomplished because it can be rewarding. As Clothier would say, it's just a behavior.

 

You can't teach a dog NOT to do something that they are inclined to do without letting them know the thing you don't want them to do.

Well, you actually can, but it's more along the lines of using DRO - differential reinforcement of other behaviour or DRI - differential reinforcement of an incompatible behaviour. So the dog isn't overtly being punished for it, but they are learning a behaviour that is incompatible with trash raiding.

When I was home:
What I would do, if garbage-raiding became a problem, is teach the dog that it has a "place" in the kitchen, and very heavily reinforce the dog being in that place. So perhaps a mat, or a bed, or a blanket or something that dog can stay on in order to be in the room, and teach it so that it become the default offered response as opposed to being put on cue. The dog comes in the kitchen and goes to its place, without haveing to BE cued. Or, I would teach boundaries, in which the dog is not to pass a certain point in the kitchen so that they can't reach the garbage.

I would also teach a strong "Mine" cue (others version of Leave It) so the dog would leave it alone on cue if for any reason I needed it to.

When I'm not home:

I would simply barrier off the kitchen, put the dog in another room, or put the dog in a kennel. No use in setting the dog up for unwanted behaviour. I think one of the most responsible things a person CAN do is proper management. I think that itself goes beyond any reinforcement or punishment used.

Punishment is just as likely to fail at any given point as reinforcement is. It all comes down to the reliability that you expect. Punishment can and does fail just as often as reinforcement does. There is absolutely no reason I couldn't teach my dog to leave something alone using reinforcement in the same way there is no reason I couldn't do it using punishment. I can also set up situations to set the dog up for success in leaving the trash alone while I'm not in the room! The effect you get out of it simply depends on the work you put into it. Classical conditioning is just as potent as OC, which is another avenue you could take as well, which has nothing to do with punishment OR reward.

At any given time there are things in the home that the dogs could destroy - clothes, books, ornaments, the TV remote, etc. You come to our home and you'll see the same types of things usually that you'd see in any home. We just put the garbage away because it's the easiest solution, and because it's also more aesthetically pleasing to our kitchen. But we don't live in a sterile environment where everything is placed out of reach. And the dogs don't try to destroy those things the second we turn our back. Heck, we've got dogs left out in the house when we're not home and they don't eat things. And it's not because we've "punished" away every item that they could possibly chew, or that we have put everything away so they can't chew it, but rather the dogs have things that are more relevant to them, more interesting to them, and they have been reinforced so much for chewing on their own things, and re-directed away from things they shouldn't be at (which to them isn't a punishment, but rather it's the opportunity to be reinforced for what they CAN chew on), that they grow up simply not to be eating other things. Underwear, stray socks, and pens being the ultimate exception. ;-)