CM Video Links

Thanks, Gina!  But none of the links are working for me, I think the code/tags are wrong somehow? 

"The url contained a malformed video id."

Is this what you get? I do go to Youtube, just not to the video...

ETA: Fixed some...I'll fix the rest later.

Here's a link with a variety of video clips:

Link with a variety of clips from season 1-4, plus extras

Here's one.  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4&NR=1 

bleh is all I have to say.  Not how I would recommend to work with this dog.
 

tashakota

Here's one.  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4&NR=1 

bleh is all I have to say.  Not how I would recommend to work with this dog.
 

And how is that, specifically?

tashakota

Here's one.  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4&NR=1 

bleh is all I have to say.  Not how I would recommend to work with this dog.
 

Do you have experience with working with a dog that goes in the "red zone"?  I have and one thing that would prevent me from doing what CM did is fear.  That type of situation is very scarey.  I give CM credit for staying in the situation and get control over the situation.  Once the dog has escaped it panic state, CM does what everyone else does....walks the dogs side by side.  If you think about it, he is doing a variation of the Constructional Agression Treatment.

Well, my own dog did what that pittie did in the first part of that video, when on leash.  He would bark and lunge at other dogs just like that dog did.  Through a process of desensitization and counter-conditioning, I have changed his emotions about other dogs on leash and can now walk him past most other dogs without a problem.

I tried to do the slip lead, leash correction method as instructed by a trainer in my town and it only made the problem worse.  As soon as I began the counter conditioning and desensitization, his "problems" decreased dramatically.

When the owners have that dog on leash using a harness, I see a dog that is anxious, slightly out of control and yipping in over the top threshold behavior.  When CM is walking the dog on a choke leash, I see a dog choking and freaking out because it's being choked.  And I can say that yes, I have seen that same exact behavior on a stray I picked up that had never had a leash on its neck before and in AC they use slip leads, so the tightening of the leash on the dogs neck caused a major freak out to the point of having to hold the dog still by body pinning it to get the leash OFF.  Once the leash was off, the dog was a very nice, friendly dog again.

The last scene in that video is a dog that has given up because it ran out of air, not because it now sees the leash holder as "alpha".  By going the route they are showing in the video, they are doing a good job of teaching that dog to suppress it's emotions but the underlying emotions have not been changed.  They are creating the scenario of "it was out of the blue", imo. 

Not every technique out there works for every dog IMHO.

I do favor positive techniques. I was taught with the slip collar method back in the 80s. I think any dog that has never walk with any lead has a chance to freak out. It usually get worse the older the dog gets without having a lead on it, because it seems to be a controlling thing.

 I have seen some very good positive trainers do that "dog bite" to their dogs does that mean they are bad dog trainers? I don't think so. I have started from positive methods with my high separation anxiety dogs that I got from the rescue to get negative methods (spray bottle) and it worked.

jdata

Not every technique out there works for every dog IMHO.

I do favor positive techniques. I was taught with the slip collar method back in the 80s. I think any dog that has never walk with any lead has a chance to freak out. It usually get worse the older the dog gets without having a lead on it, because it seems to be a controlling thing.

 I have seen some very good positive trainers do that "dog bite" to their dogs does that mean they are bad dog trainers? I don't think so. I have started from positive methods with my high separation anxiety dogs that I got from the rescue to get negative methods (spray bottle) and it worked.

I am not and will not comment on methods being good or bad.  I'm saying for this dog, from what I see in the video, this is not the method I would have used. 

DPU

tashakota

Here's one.  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4&NR=1 

bleh is all I have to say.  Not how I would recommend to work with this dog.
 

Do you have experience with working with a dog that goes in the "red zone"?  I have and one thing that would prevent me from doing what CM did is fear.  That type of situation is very scarey.  I give CM credit for staying in the situation and get control over the situation.  Once the dog has escaped it panic state, CM does what everyone else does....walks the dogs side by side.  If you think about it, he is doing a variation of the Constructional Agression Treatment.

That dog was hardly in the "red zone" for aggression.  I didn't see that, frankly.  The pitch of the barking did not suggest "attack" - it suggested fear or arousal.  Granted, arousal can turn to worse, and so can fear, but in my experience the actions taken on this video were not helpful in reducing that level of arousal.  Usually, when Pits attack other dogs, they don't have their mouths open with tongues hanging out, and they don't announce themselves by barking frantically.  Mostly, when Pitties go for something, it's instantaneous and unexpected.  They don't do much signaling when they are serious, which is another reason that owners get in trouble with them. Pits can often play with the same dog for months, and suddenly one day they get into a big blowout.  Of course, when that happens, everyone says the dog "attacked with no warning".  Often, it's just that the warning is not obvious to humans, and it certainly isn't noisy.  Not to say that every dog is silent, but that tends to be the m.o. with a lot of these guys.  Sorry, gotta side with tashakota on this one.  The only thing I did agree with is that frustration unchecked can lead to aggression, but I really differ on how to deal with this particular dog.
 

spiritdogs

DPU

tashakota

Here's one.  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4&NR=1 

bleh is all I have to say.  Not how I would recommend to work with this dog.
 

Do you have experience with working with a dog that goes in the "red zone"?  I have and one thing that would prevent me from doing what CM did is fear.  That type of situation is very scarey.  I give CM credit for staying in the situation and get control over the situation.  Once the dog has escaped it panic state, CM does what everyone else does....walks the dogs side by side.  If you think about it, he is doing a variation of the Constructional Agression Treatment.

That dog was hardly in the "red zone" for aggression.  I didn't see that, frankly.  The pitch of the barking did not suggest "attack" - it suggested fear or arousal.  Granted, arousal can turn to worse, and so can fear, but in my experience the actions taken on this video were not helpful in reducing that level of arousal.  Usually, when Pits attack other dogs, they don't have their mouths open with tongues hanging out, and they don't announce themselves by barking frantically.  Mostly, when Pitties go for something, it's instantaneous and unexpected.  They don't do much signaling when they are serious, which is another reason that owners get in trouble with them. Pits can often play with the same dog for months, and suddenly one day they get into a big blowout.  Of course, when that happens, everyone says the dog "attacked with no warning".  Often, it's just that the warning is not obvious to humans, and it certainly isn't noisy.  Not to say that every dog is silent, but that tends to be the m.o. with a lot of these guys.  Sorry, gotta side with tashakota on this one.  The only thing I did agree with is that frustration unchecked can lead to aggression, but I really differ on how to deal with this particular dog.
 

Okay. On one hand I'm going to agree with you and on the other I'm not.....LOL.

Pit's due tend to just attack "out of the blue" when people don't know what to look for, but as someone with quite a bit of personal experience working to rehabilitate and rehome what you're referring to as "red zone" pits I can tell you that the behavior I saw that pit exhibiting toward the other dog is EXACTLY what they do (body language, pitch of bark, type of bark, expression, tail carriage) when they REALLY want something and are being held back. You see it as arousal, or fear (what suggested that?) but I see aggression. She did not want to say hi, she did not want to give the other dog a sniff, she wanted to fight.

In the second part of the video, where she is really struggling with Cesar, she has fear and IMO he pushed her too far. The correct thing to do (IMO) and what I would have done when she panicked would be to drop down to a squat, let lead out, and allow her to regroup. IMO treating an aggressive pit (or any other aggressive dog) the way he did is one of the things that creates dog to human aggression and fear aggression. He cornered her and she panicked her poor little heart out. If he had backed off and let her regroup he could still have controlled her, she's ON LEAD. Then let the dog walk by again and do it again. But allowing a dog to panic in that manner and shoving it to the ground is not teaching the dog to trust you, or that you'll protect it. It's teaching do as I say or else, and I don't agree with that. I'm not saying stuff her full of treats and say "good girl". Each case, each dog is 100% different and has to be trained and treated differently, I believe positive training is the best policy because it builds trust and bonding, but there are dogs that need discipline. This dog was not handled in the best way as far as I am concerned. I am not the one with a show, but personally, I wouldn't let him touch my dogs. A dog can respect, obey, and love you without fearing you, and somewhere down the line that dog is going to yap at something and someone's going to try to roll her and she's going to say "I don't think so!" and we'll get to read about her in the papers.......

Pit's due tend to just attack "out of the blue" when people don't know what to look for, but as someone with quite a bit of personal experience working to rehabilitate and rehome what you're referring to as "red zone" pits I can tell you that the behavior I saw that pit exhibiting toward the other dog is EXACTLY what they do (body language, pitch of bark, type of bark, expression, tail carriage) when they REALLY want something and are being held back. You see it as arousal, or fear (what suggested that?) but I see aggression. She did not want to say hi, she did not want to give the other dog a sniff, she wanted to fight.

Well, whichever of us is correct about that particular dog, the fact is that you are quite correct that the whole thing was handled incorrectly.  The statement you made about the dog being on lead is really the key.  Whether a dog is aggressive, fearful, or just frustrated, it's the lead that's the real issue.  It exacerbates any and all those situations.  But, it's also the safety net for the situation if it's used correctly to get the dog out of the area and to a place where the handler can ask for attention and get it.  And, frankly, I have no problem stuffing a dog full of treats if I'm doing it according to scientifically sound principles of classical or counter-conditioning, and not just randomly feeding without any idea of when or how to do it properly. FWIW, I just wanted to remind people that the judicious use of food is a useful tool in training and rehabilitation.  We do agree on one thing - he'll never get his hands on any of my dogs either:-)) 

Well, whichever of us is correct about that particular dog, the fact is that you are quite correct that the whole thing was handled incorrectly.  The statement you made about the dog being on lead is really the key.  Whether a dog is aggressive, fearful, or just frustrated, it's the lead that's the real issue.  It exacerbates any and all those situations.  But, it's also the safety net for the situation if it's used correctly to get the dog out of the area and to a place where the handler can ask for attention and get it.  And, frankly, I have no problem stuffing a dog full of treats if I'm doing it according to scientifically sound principles of classical or counter-conditioning, and not just randomly feeding without any idea of when or how to do it properly. FWIW, I just wanted to remind people that the judicious use of food is a useful tool in training and rehabilitation.  We do agree on one thing - he'll never get his hands on any of my dogs either:-)) 

I absolutely agree with you on the use of treats, and I do use them. IMO any tool that works in training in rehabilitation is useful and perfect as long as it is what works in the given situation and with that particular dog. It doesn't matter to me if the tool is food, a ball, a word, or a leaf off a nearby tree, if it gets the dogs attention and works it's great! I once rehabilitated a pitbull that LOVED water bottles, I found that out purely by accident of course, on a walk. They were not the safest thing for him to gnawing on, but he loved them and would do ANYTHING if I would give him a full water bottle to play with (no, it didn't stay full long ), and I always supervised him, but it helped me get him through the immediate major problems he was having and once he was calmer I was able to wean him to retriever bumper. Timing is everything, and I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. His handling of her was harsh and unnecessary and she could have been gentled, rather than forced. No, it would not have looked as pretty on the camera, but she would have been better off IMO.  

Absolutely, and as someone who has a dog that will drop food out of her mouth to get the f-r-i-s-b-e-e, I can certainly identify with the fact that a reinforcer is something the *dog* wants.