Word discussion: Correction, punishment

lostcoyote

OC is a human construction used to categorize certain action/reaction mechanisms found in the ways animals learn.... you said it yourself when you stated that "It's a definition, nothing more." without humans around to categorize and define everything, it's merely behavior & learning mechanisms at play.

Whether or not the terms we use are a "human" contstruct, it doesn't change the fact that they happen, across species, all over the world, every day. It's just great that there ARE words to describe such very simple things, because in the end it is one of the most simple concepts to grasp!

"Merely" behaviour and learning mechanisms? That's a huge set of principles to put "merely" in front of. I suppose that means though that you agree that they happen regardless of whether or not people ever define them. In which case, I have no need to continue this discussion. :-)

I think we've pretty much established that something does not have to be "premeditated" to be a punishment. To say it again will just become repetitive and time-wasting, so I won't refer to that any longer. As well, punishment has nothing to do with "conscious or emotional decision on the part of the one delivering that punishment". Again, an inaccurate understanding of how the term is used. But we've already gone over that too, so again it becomes repetitive.

As for child B's response? It depends on the response of the child. The realistic answer is that you have to see how the child's behaviour changed as a result of the rock being thrown? If the child's future behaviour did not change at all, then it is simply bullying and abuse, not punishment. If, the child threw the rock to keep the other child away from its toy, and the child avoided the toy in the future, the child was the punisher. If the child developed a future phobia of rocks, and continued to steal the other child's toy, the rock was punishing. If the child was walking along a cliff and a rock fell on the child, and the child developed a fear of the cliff, the rock would be a punisher.

As for being relative, the definitions are quite concrete IMO. 

Anyhow, once again the discussion is becoming a circular one, with the same arguments being repeated over and over again and no new understandings arising. Unless something new arises to discuss, I'll bow out of this one.

Ta!

Like I said, the day we start choosing our own definitions for words, the day that all possibility for coherent discussion collapses. Because you cannot hold a conversation where people define words to their own whim and glory.

espencer

To me, punishing often comes from frustration and anger. In other words, there is emotion behind a punishment. Correcting the dog is just reminding him that he broke the rules, boundaries, or limitations and setting him back on the right track. It’s done simply, instantly, and without emotion.

I'm quite familiar with learning theory's specialized use of the word "punishment", but I agree that the above quote seems to be the most common way it's understood. And, if I could impart only one small idea to a new dog owner it would be "please don't project anger or other emotional gunk onto your dog!"  For that purpose, the above definition feels very helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

[edit] In psychology

In the field of psychology punishment has a more restrictive and technical definition. In this field, punishment is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment";) or removed ("negative punishment";). Making an offending student lose recess or play privileges are examples of negative punishment, while extra chores or spanking are examples of positive punishment. The definition requires that punishment is only determined after the fact by the reduction in behavior; if the offending behavior of the subject does not decrease then it is not considered punishment. There is some conflation of punishment and aversives, though an aversive that does not decrease behavior is not considered punishment

There is a precedent and a standard use of the word punishment in the behavioral psychology. Even that famous guy calls himself a behavior specialist, though his definition does not match that of behavioral psychology. So, it is interesting to see the different ways we use the word.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/punishme.htm

Another link.

Hopefully these will help. Or this thread could have served to define a common definition here but I don't think that's going to happen.

What is interesting is how people differentiate between punishment and abuse, In a technical definition of punishment, there is not a scale present. Simply that a stimulus that stops behavior, whether that stimulus results in death of the organism, or not. And that we each have criteria for what is abuse and what is "proper" punishment. I think it's a sign of our humanity that there is such a thing as "too much."

ron2

Or this thread could have served to define a common definition here but I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't think it's going to happen either. I think, what's more important is for us all to S-T-R-E-T-C-H our minds open to the point that when we see that someone has written the word "punishment", we realize that the person MIGHT not be meaning that they're standing over their dog in anger with a bat beating and cursing the poor animal... As I see it, it's not important that we all agree on a definition. That doesn't help our dogs. What's important is that we communicate and not judge each other as abusive or ignorant or idiots just because of the words we use.

If we want to know what others mean by punishment or correction, we can ask instead of Ass-u-me. This isn't a classroom. There will NOT be a test. This is all about learning the best way to deal with our dogs, not about the "right" definition and the "wrong" definition and definitely not how to pick apart the English language until it's in little unrecognizable bits on the floor... I don't think...

From the dictionary

1.  
1. The act or an instance of punishing.
2. The condition of being punished.
2. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must . . . be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Simone Weil).
3. Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.

1. The act or process of correcting.
2. Something offered or substituted for a mistake or fault: made corrections in the report.
3.  
1. Punishment intended to rehabilitate or improve.
2. corrections The treatment of offenders through a system of penal incarceration, rehabilitation, probation, and parole, or the administrative system by which these are effectuated.
4. An amount or quantity added or subtracted in order to correct.
5. A decline in stock-market activity or prices following a period of increases.

 My rabbit punishes me whenever I do something she doesn't like. She witholds affection, ignores me, and might even turn her back on me and stamp her feet. She'll keep it up until my behaviour changes to something she likes better. You can't tell me animals don't punish. In fact, she's even tailored it for me. Once she worked out how much I like to stroke her ears, she started denying me access to her ears if I wasn't giving her enough respect!

No one has answered my question about whether pressure is punishment or not. Can it still be punishment if the animal doesn't dislike it, but still changes its behaviour slightly? 

corvus

No one has answered my question about whether pressure is punishment or not. Can it still be punishment if the animal doesn't dislike it, but still changes its behaviour slightly? 

Thinking of pressure AS punishment isn't helpful to me. But, thinking of USING pressure as a form of punishment seems useful.

In the learning theory sense, how we or the animal feels about the punishment doesn't matter. The only thing that marks something as punishment is it's effect, not our feelings about it. So, P+ is adding something that reduces the behavior. That could be pressure, leash pops, stern tone of voice, or the smell of tomato sauce - whatever reduces the behavior. Punishment may change behavior because the dog doesn't like it or is frightened of it (aversives like yelling or leash pops), or maybe just doesn't know what "it" is (surprise factor, like throwing chains). Learning theory isn't looking at feelings to explain how this works, it just looks at behaviors and consequences.

But, I think you're right, we apply pressure all the time with our dogs and probably never calculate it as "punishment", perhaps we register it as "correction." 

I think of pressure mostly in terms of applying pressure in proofing or training for distractions, which is necessary to teach reliable commands. Pressure is also a large part of building relationships in an activity like sheepherding. The human, the sheep and the dog are all applying pressures to each other, in a dance of comfort zones ... I guess you could break the steps of the dance down into P+, R+, etc ... but herding is so much about "feeling it", that I would definitely not wrap my mind up that way!

corvus

No one has answered my question about whether pressure is punishment or not.

Can you define what you mean by pressure? Do you mean putting your hands on the dogs and applying physical pressure to the dog? Or do you mean applying pressure to the dog without the use of force - ie body movements, balance, moving into their space (or removing pressure by getting out of their space). Pressure tends to be used in different ways, depending on the person (another one of those words with many meanings!). Pressure can even be applying eye contact to a dog when it is about to do something you don't want it to do, if the dog perceives it as pressure (not all dogs do), they will likely relieve that pressure by backing away, or offering some other behaviour such as sitting or lying down.

In the end though, it's only punishment if it changes behaviour. If you apply pressure and the dog ignores you, then it's not punishment. If you apply pressure and the dog winces/becomes fearful but resumes its behaviour, it's still not punishment (but considered aversive, and not something I would continue to do anyhow as I'm a fan of eliminating fear and anxiety in dogs). If the dog stops doing what it was doing, or lessens the frequency in the future, then it was punishment.

Pressure (of both kinds) can be used as a punisher or a reinforcer though, in terms of changing behaviour. And it can be applied in all contexts of OC.

 I was thinking along the lines of the latter definition, non-physical pressure. Just moving in and out of comfort zones. I guess I use it a lot because it's subtle and fairly reliable once you get to know your animals. Mine don't seem to dislike it, but they do change their behaviour because of it. I wonder if it starts out being a slight aversive and becomes classical conditioning? The other thing I like about pressure is the degree of subtlety one can use. I can increase pressure in such tiny increments that I can get just the right amount to get the desired response and then I can immediately back off. It seems a low-stress way of punishing as long as it's done sensitively.

Kim, how do you personally feel about pressure? Would you be happy using it if the dog wasn't especially stressed by it? I've come to rely quite heavily on it when dealing with my hare because he's so sensitive and his comfort zone is often very big. That and I think the biggest reward I can offer him in certain situations is to get out of his comfort zone, which means I have to get in it in the first place. Which puts me in the morally confusing place of having to punish him before I can reward him. I think with a dog you have to really get in their face to make them change their behaviour, but I haven't noticed this upsetting my dog. A lot of the time she just shuffles backwards grinning up at me. If I move into her space too fast for her to shuffle, she just hops sideways and follows me. But then, I think it depends on the way you move as well, because if I moved into her space gently, talking in a light and happy voice, she would be concentrating on me and hoping for affection rather than on where I was in her personal space and she'd move perhaps sub-consciously, but if I stepped smartly into her zone speaking in a growly voice, she'd be more likely to find that scary or stressful and would probably be much more aware of the fact that I was in her personal space.

ETA: You know, I understand that feelings don't come into it from a scientific perspective, but I think the fact that it's called "punishment" in that context shouldn't be overlooked. If there are no feelings, then why use that word? Are we specifically talking about something that will decrease the likelihood of the behaviour reoccurring, or are we talking about something that simply changes typical behaviour? That's a distinction that should be addressed, IMO. From the pressure perspective, I think pressure on my dog would change behaviour, but it wouldn't necessarily reduce the likelihood of a behaviour reoccurring. 

I don't use physical pressure myself, but I do use forms of non-physical pressure and I'm constantly aware of how my pressure affects dogs. Even when we don't think we are, we're often applying pressure to dogs. Like I said, even an eye glance at a dog could be pressure, depending on the dog. I do also pay close attention to each dog I work with with pressure, and I am sure to never put the dog in a situation where it feels anxious or fearful. That's why I'm a huge fan of understanding pressure, because you can really relieve a LOT of anxiety in dogs just by backing up and giving them a bit of space (a key part in desensitization work!) to feel comfortable in.

You'd be surprised to know how you can teach dogs to repond to pressure. For instance, with Poker, I have taught him that quite subtle movements (not even really a step forward) can make him move his body and shift his balance. I slight movement to the right will cause him to shift back a bit and to the left. A slight shift to the left will cause him to do the same to the right. If I back up, I'm allowing him momentum forward. This would sound quite controlling, until you realize that the context is simply to teach him to free stack and to get him to set himself up in the proper stance so I can reward him for the desired behaviour. All the while he is happily working with me, there is no fear or anxiety involved. I have a video clip of doing just that, I'll see if I can get it uploaded to demonstrate it.

My girl Gaci has an AMAZING drive for tug. So I've been taking advantage of that to improve her wait and her down/sits at a distance, as well as teaching a "Stop/freeze" motion (for the record, a clicker was not used at all, for any of this! Except to have taught the sit/down/wait to begin with. The bite cue, the release cue, the stopping cue, all done via means other than a clicker! What, you say? I do thinks without a clicker?!?!?!). Anyhow, Gaci is VERY driven and in the beginning she used to jump the gun and begin running before I cued her release, because she was so anticipating that bite. All I needed to use to work on that was the use of minor pressure. When she bolted forward, I simply stepped TOWARDS her, with my hand out like a traffic cop (this has become the cue to freeze if she's moving towards me, which we're still working on). In the beginning she came up very close to me before she would stop, and I would have to take a few steps towards her, but now if she jumps the gun, which is getting less and less often with practice (you really have to see her to see how drivey she is, I think she could compete with any SCH dog in that area...lol), and now she will stop almost automatically and resume the position I had asked of her. Rather than view it as an aversive, it has simply become a cue to "freeze and resume position". There is no fear, no anxiety, no withdrawal or avoidance, just an understanding that my movement INTO her space signals that I want her to do something to alter her behaviour, in this case cease forward momentum. I also have videos of this so I'll find them and upload them for you so you can get a visual of how I use pressure to alter behaviour.

So yes, I do use pressure (for me it's mostly the occupation/relinquishing of space, but there are likely other examples), but I don't use it as an aversive, and if a dog did find it aversive, I would be very cautious in using it to likely not using it at all. Like I said, I'm quite aware of pressure in the sense that I'll also very happily back OFF of a dog to relieve pressure if the dog is telling me that it is feeling pressured, as for me the dog's comfort and trust is always the forefront of any work that we do.

Thanks Kim! That has really helped me better understand exactly what I'm doing with pressure. The better I understand it, the better I can use it. Kit has taught me a lot because he's so highly strung and his comfort zone is wildly variable. Some days he'll let me walk right up to him in the hall while he's free ranging and some days he'll bolt when I'm still 6 paces away and not even looking at him. I've come to be very aware of what he's telling me. I've noticed the same thing that you were saying with just shifting your weight. Sometimes I'll be trying to get Kit back in his cage but he's being naughty and doesn't want to go. He won't move until I put pressure on him, but if I put too much, he breaks and bolts past the cage or will go in but bolts out again. I've had him teetering on the brink of breaking, but saving it by just leaning back on my heels slightly. He instantly relaxes and comes back from the brink, but there's still enough pressure on him so that he doesn't just go back to his hiding place and chill. I can then give him a moment to collect himself and when I lean forward again or just centre my weight, he'll move calmly instead of bolting. As long as I pick up on his state of mind before I push him too far, I can keep him from panicking, which is basically my aim in life with him. Of course, sometimes he doesn't give me any warning to speak of and just flips out instantly. I feel bad about it because I'm pretty sure he did give me warning and I just wasn't paying attention. I think with him pressure can quickly turn into an aversive, but unfortunately I haven't yet found anything he would come back to the cage for straight away, so I think I'm stuck with it. Wild hares certainly challenge OC.

To bring things back on topic, would it be fair to say pressure is not a punishment when it doesn't decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated? So pressure to change how an animal might be standing is not punishment, but if pressure was an aversive, the animal would want to avoid it and it would be a punishment in that case?
 

corvus

To bring things back on topic, would it be fair to say pressure is not a punishment when it doesn't decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated? So pressure to change how an animal might be standing is not punishment, but if pressure was an aversive, the animal would want to avoid it and it would be a punishment in that case?

That sounds right to me. 

Everything varies on whether it is a punishment or not.  It all dependfs on how the dog views it and whether he wants to avoid the consequence in future.

FourIsCompany

As I see it, it's not important that we all agree on a definition. That doesn't help our dogs. What's important is that we communicate and not judge each other as abusive or ignorant or idiots just because of the words we use.

While I think it's important to agree on what is meant by a word for a common understanding of terms (semantics), I agree with the final sentence, that we need to communicate with respect and not so much sarcasm. Also, it is quite easy to assume a tone based merely on someone's word choice and get the wrong impression.

FourIsCompany

If we want to know what others mean by punishment or correction, we can ask instead of Ass-u-me.

This is very important. I have learned from someone who uses physical touch but is actually very positive in approach. So, it was important to discover what was actually meant by physical style. The touch is there, subtle gestures are there, markers are there. Very positive. Just because it didn't involve a piece of plastic and tin (clicker) didn't mean that the training wasn't marker training. And I wasn't referring to you, 4IC, though you kind of fit this profile, too.