Word discussion: Correction, punishment

Excellent idea for a thread.

Scientifically, any thing designed to stop a behavior is a punishment. + if something is introduced to the environment, - if something is removed.

Then we enter with the word correction. If I use an incompatible behavior, I could view that as a correction, as I am correcting the path I want my dog to take.

If I stop rewarding a behavior that I don't want, that is -P. I have removed a reward from the environment in order to help a behavior to extinguish. As I posted in another thread, I have used the scruff but not to harm or cause physical pain. And Shadow would drop and roll himself. It was attention, a reward. So, it didn't stop the behavior. And, at times, timing was way off. Like when he would attack my in-laws old Lhasa Apso. By the time I got to scruff and pin him (the only time I did it hard) he had already disengaged. So, what did I punish? Disengaging? Waiting for me? And it only worked for that visit. Next visit, same problem.

So, I tend to go with the scientific definition, with correction sometimes being a redirection. Like if I correct a person's math mistake. But I would view collar pops, finger bites, and physical impact to stop a behavior as + P as it is a thing brought into stop a behavior.

FWIW, I think some corrections, such as a negative reward marker, or a redirection with an incompatible behavior to be akin to the walls of a maze and could be considered course corrections, say, like a musher saying haw or gee. They guide, rather than punish.

ron2

Scientifically, any thing designed to stop a behavior is a punishment. + if something is introduced to the environment, - if something is removed.

Call me Mrs Picky, but if we are using the term in its scientific sense (and I am guessing both of us are) then this is a mistake a LOT of people make.  A punishment is NOT something DESIGNED to stop a future behaviour.  Lots of things are designed to stop a behaviour, but they don't actually work.  Scientifically speaking, they are not punishments.  The clincher over whether something is a punishment or not is whether it does actually decrease the chances of that bhvr happening again.

Sorry.  Just wanted to clarify that.  Carry on.

Chuffy

Lots of things are designed to stop a behaviour, but they don't actually work.

 

To me, they are still classed as a punishment, even if the dog viewed it as a reinforcer. That is, functionally within a case-specific dog, what should have been a punishment has become a reward or an irritant. So, yeah, you might class that stimulus as a rewarder because it didn't fulfill the intention of being a punishment. Such as my use of the scruff. It is technically a punishment, even if Shadow didn't always view it that way. In his mind, it became a reinforcer. Perhaps that is why I have had better success intentionally reinforcing some things and allowing other things to shrivel up due to lack of reinforcement or stronger reinforcement for something incompatible with the undesired. To wit, he seeks reinforcement and I give it in the direction I think we should go.

 The Difference Between Punishing and Correcting Your Dog

Moderator speaking...

I would love it if this could be a discussion on what WE, the members here, believe these terms to mean and how we employ them with our dogs....rather than the opinions of others who are not present here.

I don't use the term correction. I never have, never plan on doing it. It's not just that it's a word that is negative, because in some cases it's not, but it's because it's a word that has so many different meanings that in order to use it properly you'd have to define it each and every single time you use the word. And to me, that's a sign of the word's validity as a whole, especially when there are other established words out there to use. If I had to define a word every time I use it just so that there was no misunderstanding, I'd never be able to discuss anything. Besides, I don't wish to "correct" behaviour, I wish to modify it. Most of what we are changing in dog behaviour is normal dog behaviour, to say we are 'correcting' something implies that the dog is doing something abnormal. I think the term correction and correcting belongs to marking answers on quizzes. Not in dog teachings. ;-)

The only time I also use "punishment" as a word in discussions, is when I'm discussing it with other folks who know what I'm talking about (ie the established definition, not the everyday jargon definition), or when I use it in the realm to contradict the "clicker people never use punishments!!!!!" argument. When I'm talking in every day language to people, the term punishment usually comes across in a negative way. That's because of the way in which 99% of the public use the word. So rather than say "You should use negative punishment to teach the pup not to jump up on you", I would say "Ignore the dog when it jumps up on you, and if it doesn't stop remove yourself from the room to give the pup a small timeout". Same meaning, different phrasing.

To me a correction IS a form of punishment. Even saying "ah ah" is meant to stop a behaviour from happening at that time, and chances are it is used to decrease how often the behaviour is done in the future. The term "ah ah" in this case becomes a conditioned punisher for the most part. If it wasn't meant as some sort of punishment (ie to affect behaviour), then there is little point in using it IMO. If you use it as simply an attention getter, that's fine I suppose, although using the dog's name will suffice just as well (after all, what's a name for right? To get attention!). I wouldn't use the term correction to define something to get a dog's attention. A "correction" via a collar pop is a punishment. A "correction" via a voice is almost always still a punishment (as described previous). 

Some examples to illustrate my point:

From http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/punishment.shtml:

A correction is the act of modifying a behavior, movement, or posture through operant conditioning; either positive or negative reinforcement.  A correction can be anything from an extra ounce of leg pressure to a severe (7 on a scale of 10) use of the rein or popper to keep a horse from biting or kicking another horse or human. Use the appropriate correction for the situation, but no more!

This is describing the exact definition of punishment, even relating it later to the two types of reinforcements, and Kareny Pryor.

From http://ezinearticles.com/?Proper-Correction-for-Dog-Training&id=467455

It is very important to recognize the difference between correction and punishment. Punishment has nothing to do with teaching your dog proper behavior and everything to do with you venting your anger.

Again, an incorrect definition of punishment, leading the term correction to fill in the proper meaning for punishment.

While both punishment and correction are forms of negative reaction to a dog's behavior, they are not interchangeable training methods. Unfortunately, many dog owners rely on punishment rather than correction. And again, unfortunately, most dogs never understand what the punishment is for.

Example 1

Behavior: Dog gets into the garbage.

Desired Behavior: Dog stays out of the garbage at all times.

Punishment: Human comes home, sees garbage all over the kitchen, drags the dog into the kitchen, severely scolds the dog and hits him while explaining that the dog should not get into the garbage.

Result: Dog is afraid to see the human come home, still gets into the garbage as it is a fun, rewarding activity and dog does not associate the garbage with the scolding.

Correction: Human sees dog in garbage and scolds dog immediately. After the short correction, the human gives the dog a command he can do well (sit, down, etc.) and then praises the dog for obedience.

Result: The dog will associate the scolding with the action of getting into the garbage if timed properly. Dog will continue to enjoy the human's return

The part labelled punishment is not at all punishment. It is abuse. The part labelled correction is indeed punishment.

The interent and books are filled with such examples. That alone is why I think the term correction needs to stay far away from anything to do with dogs, and if we are to discuss changing the frequency of behaviours, we should stick to the established definitions that we have.

Chuffy

What do these terms mean to you?  What do you mean when you say them?

 

I haven't read the other responses, so I will do that after I give mine.  

Correction - A correction is when I let the dog know what is expected of him OR when he gets it "wrong". In other words, a correction is used when the dog doesn't really know the "right" thing to do. It's a guide before or during the behavior.

Punishment - A punishment is when I intend a negative consequence for doing something. It's a consequence during or immediately following the behavior.

Interestingly, an action of mine can be either a correction or a punishment. For example, depending how it's said, what's going on at the time and the dog I'm working with, the word "No" can be a correction (as in "No, no, that's not right";) or a punishment (as in "No! You KNOW that's wrong!";)

Disclaimer: I'm using the words "right" and "wrong" as shorthand for "desired behavior" and "undesired behavior".
 

 

espencer

 The Difference Between Punishing and Correcting Your Dog

Within that:

In my mind, there is a huge difference between correcting and punishing a dog. To me, punishing often comes from frustration and anger. In other words, there is emotion behind a punishment. Correcting the dog is just reminding him that he broke the rules, boundaries, or limitations and setting him back on the right track. It’s done simply, instantly, and without emotion.

Dogs don’t punish each other. When one dog does something out of line, the others don’t get emotional about it, they simply correct each other or they snap each other out of the offending state-of-mind. Again, it’s the natural consequence of a follower that’s not respecting the rules, boundaries, or limitations.

Another incorrect understanding of the definition of punishment. And another definition of correction that is quite similar to that of punishment, albeit described a bit more commonly. That's why we need to have established definitions, so that these misunderstandings don't happen.

Kim_MacMillan

That's why we need to have established definitions, so that these misunderstandings don't happen.

 

That's true. For most of our discussions, it's best to be using the same definitions. But the OP asks for OUR definitions of the words. How we use them. Not an agreed upon definition. And not whose definitions are correct or incorrect. When we're giving OUR definitions, there is no such thing.

Kim_MacMillan

To me a correction IS a form of punishment. Even saying "ah ah" is meant to stop a behaviour from happening at that time

I suppose so.  I suppose I think of punishment being that which impacts future behaviour - not something which may interrupt behaviour at that moment - like ron's example with the scruff. 

And saying a dog's name doesn't always work for me - for my own dogs yes - at least for the older, streadier, trained.  Younger pups or newer dogs that need a bit of practise with "attention on me please"... not always.  And dogs that belong to other people and rarely even look at their owner when they call their name never mind me!  Plus, if the dog is doing something I don't like, I'm not totally convinced I can keep that OUT of my voice when saying his name, and I do like the dog to associate his name with good things.  But if I can call the dogs name to redirect his attention, or call him away from whatever he is doing, I still class that as a "correction".  I have corrected what he was doing. 

I like the school quiz analogy. The way I look at it: A kid might hand a worksheet in to his teacher and she may mark some of the answers as correct (with a tick) and some as incorrect (with a cross). Or she may correct it, eg 9 x 9 = 64  81. 

And I agree 100% about people labelling abuse as punishment.... I see it happening all the time.

 

What do these terms mean to you?  What do you mean when you say them?

The term correction rarely occurs to me in my daily activities with my dogs, since I usually ignore behavior I don't want, and reward behavior I do want.  Whenever possible, I lean toward "extinguishing" behavior that is undesirable.  I accept the scientific explanation of a punisher as something that causes a behavior to go unrepeated.  Punishment can be positive or negative.  Again, I accept the definitions that scientists apply, so that any discussion is based on information, not emotion:

http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html 

spiritdogs

Again, I accept the definitions that scientists apply, so that any discussion is based on information,

Me too.  I think, if only we could all mean the same things by these sorts of words there would be less misunderstanding, and the "actual definitions", the scientific terms seem to be a good choice, because it is "cold and clinical", not emotive.

Chuffy

I suppose so.  I suppose I think of punishment being that which impacts future behaviour - not something which may interrupt behaviour at that moment - like ron's example with the scruff. 

As do I. My point was that even saying an "ah ah" would hopefully be something that would impact future behaviour. Otherwise you'd be saying "ah ah" forever, as it would have no meaning aside from perhaps being an interrupter. And interrupter isn't the same thing as a punishment though.

Chuffy

And saying a dog's name doesn't always work for me - for my own dogs yes - at least for the older, streadier, trained.  Younger pups or newer dogs that need a bit of practise with "attention on me please"... not always.

If saying a dog's name doesn't work, which is supposed to be the animal's lifeline, why would an interrupter work any differently? Or, to put it another way, instead of making a new word to do what the dog's name should, why not just focus on improving the dog's response to its name?

Chuffy

Plus, if the dog is doing something I don't like, I'm not totally convinced I can keep that OUT of my voice when saying his name, and I do like the dog to associate his name with good things.

This is true, but dogs learn just as much about tone of voice as they do their name. I would think that, unless you used their name ONLY in the context of negativity, the dog would/should have far more successful name calls and therefore those few (as they should be few, or else you're facing handler problems, not training issues) "emotive" calls would be irrelevant.

Chuffy

But if I can call the dogs name to redirect his attention, or call him away from whatever he is doing, I still class that as a "correction".  I have corrected what he was doing. 

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. I don't call my dog's name to "correct" what he was doing. If that was the case I'd be "correcting" a recall, "correcting" an orienting response, etc. Sometimes I'll use their attention to me, to then re-direct them on to something else, but only after I've gotten their attention.

So it's: dog doing unwanted behaviour --> call name --> dog orients --> re-direct to something else.
Rather than dog doing unwanted behaviour --> re-direct to something else.
I would reward the dog for orienting to me, which automatically changes the context of what the dog was doing before. For anybody to use the word "correction", it would mean to correct, which implies the dog was doing something wrong. I don't use a dog's name as a correction, I use it simply to gain a dog's focus. There is a difference, even if it's a subtle one, and perhaps that's what makes it difficult to grasp.

 Perhaps it's because people overuse their dog's names so much that it becomes a problem, but if people used their dog's name in place of all of the other cues that come up to mean the same thing (interrupt things or cause an orienting response), I think our dogs would be much better off. As the joke goes, I think half of our dogs that we live with think their name is "no" or "ah ah" or "Pssst!", because they hear it so often. If we simply used a dog's name to get attention, and focused on making it very strong, then we'd solve more problems that way, just by simple redirection.

To me, a punishment is a negative consequence of an unacceptable behavior.  A correction is a fix, a reinforcement, an adjustment, a retrain.  That is from the human side but from the dog's side, the dog defines the terms.  A dog will always shape its behavior to avoid the unpleasant.  To me, it is a good dog caretaker that defines and uses the terms based on the dog's definition.