Dog bit toddler.

    • Gold Top Dog

    kelliope

    What is an I-dogger?

    You are one Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

     I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if this has already been covered:

    It's pretty obvious to me that this dog had the growl scared out of him. Clearly someone taught him not to warn. Is it possible to teach him to growl again, or is he always gonna be a bite first kind of guy?

    I don't agree with this. Some dogs don't growl warnings by nature. They give other non-verbal warnings instead. My husky has never been a growler. I haven't heard her growl once ever in her entire 14 years. I recognize when a bite is coming though by her posture instead. That could be the same for this dog.

    Ultimately it's not your dog so you have really limited control over what happens. I would just listen and be subtle but persistent with suggestions about re-homing or training. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    snownose

    kelliope

    What is an I-dogger?

    You are one Wink

    Well, I'm not quite sure how to take that - what does it mean?

    • Gold Top Dog

    This forum used to be called I-Dog. The URL was i-dog.com. Sooo an i-dogger is someone who posts here.

    The growling thing..the only aggressive dog I know is Cherokee, and she's a growler, so I guess I just assumed most dogs were. I'm still learning! Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

    It looks like they're going to try and work it out. They're going to watch Noah like a hawk, make sure he doesn't mistreat Cowboy in any way, and give him a place where he can go that Noah's not allowed. I really have this feeling it might be some medical issue and maybe he's just in pain, so they're gonna take him to the vet for a thorough exam + bloodwork and a thyroid panel, just to make sure it's not something silly. Also I'm trying to find some of good training stuff to give them to make Cowboy more comfortable and obedient. Anything major we're missing? Anything horribly wrong with this? Anything little you want to add? Any good books or articles you care to suggest? I'm really happy they're gonna try to keep him, but also a little scared, so I'd like to figure out how to at least quell MY fears. Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

    chelsea_b
    It looks like they're going to try and work it out.

     

    That is absolutely wonderful.....hope it works out for all......Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

    that's great.

    Tell them about my nephew: he was never taught how to behave around dogs. My brother happened to have one of those supertolerant dogs who let the boy do anything. And then one day my nephew tried to treat the neighbor's cocker spaniel the same way and got his face removed. Teaching a child how to behave around dogs is not just about a particular dog in the home; it's about the child's safety in the real world.

    • Gold Top Dog
    • Gold Top Dog

     Oh hooray!  That is wonderful news. 

     

     

    mudpuppy

    that's great.

    Tell them about my nephew: he was never taught how to behave around dogs. My brother happened to have one of those supertolerant dogs who let the boy do anything. And then one day my nephew tried to treat the neighbor's cocker spaniel the same way and got his face removed. Teaching a child how to behave around dogs is not just about a particular dog in the home; it's about the child's safety in the real world.

     

    Amen.  I had a friend with a super tolerant lab.  She allowed her son to climb all over the dog from the time he was crawling.  I used to watch and shudder internally. That is a time bomb right there.  Kids should never think it is ok to manhandle dogs, even if their dog will take it graciously.  Some other dog might not, with tragic consequences. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    If you think it has to do with resource guarding of food, that might be the only deal breaker, since dogs that won't guard against the adults might still do so with kids.  At any rate, the preventive protocol in "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" is something I like to suggest to all families as a good thing to do.  Additionally, I would crate or limit Cowboy to the bedroom when Noah is eating, or there is food about.  The child should not be seated on the floor with the dog.  Let him pat Cowboy from the safety of a chair, and keep Cowboy off the beds and couches.  This is a good way to help avoid face bites.  They need to really be firm with Noah about interacting with Cowboy only with an adult present, and with permission.  Children under age 7 will not necessarily be able to process this, so they need to be watched even after being given directions.

    The book by Colleen Pelar, "Living With Kids and Dogs Without Losing Your Mind" is worth the investment.  So is going to class, even with an older dog, so that they can have instant response from Cowboy to the two commands that could save his life - "leave it" & "come".

    Dogs should not be expected to tolerate any behavior that children dish out - this was their first mistake.  It is just as important to protect your dog from the child, as to protect the child from the dog (because this DOES help protect the child from the dog).

    Children should not be allowed to lie on dogs, pat or prod them endlessly, or wander in to the dog's safe zone.  (Every dog that lives in a family with children should have what I call a "safe zone", where he can retreat if he wants, and the kids cannot follow.  It could be a crate, mom's bedroom, a closet, whatever, so long as he knows he is safe from unwanted overtures there.

    Please tell them that if they have ever scolded the dog for growling they have accidentally taught the dog to go directly to biting.  If this is the case, or this is a dog that doesn't give overt warnings, they need to learn more about body language, so that they optimize their chances of noticing when the dog is not comfortable.  Things as subtle as turning the head away, stress wrinkles, etc. 

    • Bronze

    Chelsea, if she's pooh-poohing all your good suggestions and doesn't think she can 'trust' the dog again, then the best thing is to find him a new home. Try a rescue organization first, as a shelter will only euthanize him and this dog doesn't deserve that. And do it quickly because if they don't keep a child that young from being alone that close to a dog, it could happen again...and it's preventable. The child shouldn't have to bear the burden of possibly being bittren or worse, and the dog shouldn't have to face the possibility of euthanasia because the parents aren't setting the boundaries and being vigilant when they have a toddler and an animal in the house together.

    The fact that he snarled before he bit means he did give a warning...he may also have given a low growl that they didn't hear because they weren't right next to him. Also, no child should be that close to a dog without immediate adult supervision right there with them. Even though the dog was right in front of them on the floor, a 2 year old shouldn't be sitting next to the dog - with food - and not have the adult right there next to him. I don't care how much one trusts a dog, there are things that can happen in the blink of an eye and by then it's too late. A fully trustworthy dog could get poked in the eye by a child and may not react, while another may growl, snarl and then bite because what just happened hurt them. Dogs don't understand that it's a small child who doesn't know better who just poked them in the eye and hurt them.

    • Gold Top Dog

    OK do not bite my head off...

    I think that kids+dogs in a small home is just crappy.  I've been around herding dogs my whole life. They do not do well in closed areas specailly if there are children. Aussie are well known for there stand offish ways. They dont really deal well with people thus they make wonderful herders. Can't be mad at the dog for the bite to the kids face. Not saying the kid had it comeing! Im just saying the parents are not around the child and dog 100% of the time. There is not telling what the child did to the dog during these times. I have a 2 and 3 yo and I have seen what they do to our cat and dogs when they dont think I am watching. Its when you catch them doing it most people say " dont do that" and thats it. Not enough.

    I give a "free bite" to all my dogs , Its going to happen some time or another.  If a dog repeats a biting in a worser degree then I have no trouble rehoming or PTS. I try to treat my dogs fairly. Older dogs are at a higher bite rate IMO then younger ones. So for most of my older dogs I will watch them double time once then hit around 7yo+ because again IMO they become snappyer. Its my responsibilty as an owner to try and insure that my animal is control'd at all times .

    As a child my mother bred Dobies and  Perro de Presa Canario! This breed has a bad rep like there cousins the Pit Bulls. My Mother never allowed me to be alone with these dogs at all until I was 10. Even when she was in the house with us and the dogs she made sure that the dog new his role and wher ehe was allowed and not allowed to be, Same for us! We had three places in the living room to where we could sit and play and if that wasn't enough we were sent to our rooms. As soon as getting a new one she spent weeks and months training them to insure her childens safety. Nothing against your sister but she should have spent more time training her dogs and insuring her childs safety. It wasnt a bad bite considering Ive seen an Aussie rip open a calfs rump down to the muscle to get it moving. His an older dog its understanable why he might become more snappy now then before. You said his 8? Ive never seen a Aussie live past 11 Normal for the Aussie my Dad had was 8-9 years. IF the bite WAS over food then it needs to be adress and have rules apply'd when eating. Food at the table not in the living room ect ect.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mudpuppy

    that's great.

    Tell them about my nephew: he was never taught how to behave around dogs. My brother happened to have one of those supertolerant dogs who let the boy do anything. And then one day my nephew tried to treat the neighbor's cocker spaniel the same way and got his face removed. Teaching a child how to behave around dogs is not just about a particular dog in the home; it's about the child's safety in the real world.

     

     

    My nephew was taught how to behave around dogs...by the dogs themselves.  (2 Pekes and an Akita)  As a 2 year old he would run around the house screaming and being a 2 year old, then he'd get within 6 feet of the Akita and quiet down, and walk sideways past the dog...after he got 6 feet on the other side, he'd go back to screaming and running.   

    I'm pretty thankful that the child had good human adult teachers and an incredibly tolerant Akita teacher as well.  As far as I know the nephew has never been bitten by a dog-and he's 15 now.  My other nephew is also dog savvy because he learned how to pay attention to the dog's behavior and to respect the dog and the dog's space.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You know what? You say that the child was Savvy towards dogs? I just thought of a great idea!!!!

     

    A DVD child base, easy for them to understand, About how to treat dogs! That would be something I would allow my kids to watch in a heart beat!

    • Gold Top Dog


    OK do not bite my head off...

    I think that kids+dogs in a small home is just crappy.  I've been around herding dogs my whole life. They do not do well in closed areas specailly if there are children. Aussie are well known for there stand offish ways. They dont really deal well with people thus they make wonderful herders. Can't be mad at the dog for the bite to the kids face. Not saying the kid had it comeing! Im just saying the parents are not around the child and dog 100% of the time. There is not telling what the child did to the dog during these times. I have a 2 and 3 yo and I have seen what they do to our cat and dogs when they dont think I am watching. Its when you catch them doing it most people say " dont do that" and thats it. Not enough.

     The reason that most children under 10 don't do as well as older children is that they don't really understand the consequences of their actions.  It's the same reason that a child under age 7 is rarely held accountable for criminal behavior.

    I give a "free bite" to all my dogs , Its going to happen some time or another.  If a dog repeats a biting in a worser degree then I have no trouble rehoming or PTS. I try to treat my dogs fairly. Older dogs are at a higher bite rate IMO then younger ones. So for most of my older dogs I will watch them double time once then hit around 7yo+ because again IMO they become snappyer. Its my responsibilty as an owner to try and insure that my animal is control'd at all times .

    While older dogs can get cranky from pain due to arthritis, etc., the statistics do not bear you out.  Most bites occur from adolescent male unneutered dogs between the ages of 9-15 months of age.

    As a child my mother bred Dobies and  Perro de Presa Canario! This breed has a bad rep like there cousins the Pit Bulls. My Mother never allowed me to be alone with these dogs at all until I was 10. Even when she was in the house with us and the dogs she made sure that the dog new his role and wher ehe was allowed and not allowed to be, Same for us! We had three places in the living room to where we could sit and play and if that wasn't enough we were sent to our rooms. As soon as getting a new one she spent weeks and months training them to insure her childens safety. Nothing against your sister but she should have spent more time training her dogs and insuring her childs safety.

    I agree that children should not be unsupervised around dogs.  All good points.


    It wasnt a bad bite considering Ive seen an Aussie rip open a calfs rump down to the muscle to get it moving.

    With all due respect, Aussies are my breed, and while some get too mouthy, a herder that damages the goods is not considered the ideal working dog. A well placed nip, fine, but ripping????  Not good.

    His an older dog its understanable why he might become more snappy now then before. You said his 8? Ive never seen a Aussie live past 11 Normal for the Aussie my Dad had was 8-9 years. 

    Again, this is just not true.  Many Aussies live to the 12-14 age range quite easily with proper care and feeding. (I get 16+ years out of most of my dogs, but they eat organic, get lots of exercise, no chemical crap on them, and I don't keep them outdoors - they live in the house.)
    I researched longevity as part of my criteria for where I chose to get my last puppy, and many of the dogs in her lines live to 14-15 pretty consistently, barring accidents.
    She's from all working stock.

    IF the bite WAS over food then it needs to be adress and have rules apply'd when eating. Food at the table not in the living room ect ect.

    The problem with a resource guarding dog, and having kids around, is that the kids bring neighbor kids in, and even if there is no food, sometimes the smell of it on a kid's clothes, or a dropped toy, can set some dogs off.  It's all about risk and how much a person is willing to take in managing a situation like that.