Dog bit toddler.

spiritdogs

OK do not bite my head off...

I think that kids+dogs in a small home is just crappy.  I've been around herding dogs my whole life. They do not do well in closed areas specailly if there are children. Aussie are well known for there stand offish ways. They dont really deal well with people thus they make wonderful herders. Can't be mad at the dog for the bite to the kids face. Not saying the kid had it comeing! Im just saying the parents are not around the child and dog 100% of the time. There is not telling what the child did to the dog during these times. I have a 2 and 3 yo and I have seen what they do to our cat and dogs when they dont think I am watching. Its when you catch them doing it most people say " dont do that" and thats it. Not enough.

 The reason that most children under 10 don't do as well as older children is that they don't really understand the consequences of their actions.  It's the same reason that a child under age 7 is rarely held accountable for criminal behavior.

I give a "free bite" to all my dogs , Its going to happen some time or another.  If a dog repeats a biting in a worser degree then I have no trouble rehoming or PTS. I try to treat my dogs fairly. Older dogs are at a higher bite rate IMO then younger ones. So for most of my older dogs I will watch them double time once then hit around 7yo+ because again IMO they become snappyer. Its my responsibilty as an owner to try and insure that my animal is control'd at all times .

While older dogs can get cranky from pain due to arthritis, etc., the statistics do not bear you out.  Most bites occur from adolescent male unneutered dogs between the ages of 9-15 months of age.

As a child my mother bred Dobies and  Perro de Presa Canario! This breed has a bad rep like there cousins the Pit Bulls. My Mother never allowed me to be alone with these dogs at all until I was 10. Even when she was in the house with us and the dogs she made sure that the dog new his role and wher ehe was allowed and not allowed to be, Same for us! We had three places in the living room to where we could sit and play and if that wasn't enough we were sent to our rooms. As soon as getting a new one she spent weeks and months training them to insure her childens safety. Nothing against your sister but she should have spent more time training her dogs and insuring her childs safety.

I agree that children should not be unsupervised around dogs.  All good points.

It wasnt a bad bite considering Ive seen an Aussie rip open a calfs rump down to the muscle to get it moving.

With all due respect, Aussies are my breed, and while some get too mouthy, a herder that damages the goods is not considered the ideal working dog. A well placed nip, fine, but ripping????  Not good.

His an older dog its understanable why he might become more snappy now then before. You said his 8? Ive never seen a Aussie live past 11 Normal for the Aussie my Dad had was 8-9 years. 

Again, this is just not true.  Many Aussies live to the 12-14 age range quite easily with proper care and feeding. (I get 16+ years out of most of my dogs, but they eat organic, get lots of exercise, no chemical crap on them, and I don't keep them outdoors - they live in the house.)
I researched longevity as part of my criteria for where I chose to get my last puppy, and many of the dogs in her lines live to 14-15 pretty consistently, barring accidents. She's from all working stock.

IF the bite WAS over food then it needs to be adress and have rules apply'd when eating. Food at the table not in the living room ect ect.

The problem with a resource guarding dog, and having kids around, is that the kids bring neighbor kids in, and even if there is no food, sometimes the smell of it on a kid's clothes, or a dropped toy, can set some dogs off.  It's all about risk and how much a person is willing to take in managing a situation like that.

I said IMO older dogs seem to be Snappy. Not always the case tho. My dobie was a wonderful dog but the older she got the more "off" and mean she became.

Also from what I know of Aussie have always been first hand through my dads dogs. They were kept in a "rougher" conditions then what I am sure yours are. These dogs came home more times then I can count with rattle snake bites, Boar cuts, One even came home rabied. The one who cut the calf open was shot on the spot, Not something My dad liked at all. So yea for OUR Aussie or other herders if they made it to 10 they where lucky. Dad had around 42 over 15years, He couldnt keep them alive because he was an @******.

Also from what I know of Aussie have always been first hand through my dads dogs. They were kept in a "rougher" conditions then what I am sure yours are. These dogs came home more times then I can count with rattle snake bites, Boar cuts, One even came home rabied. The one who cut the calf open was shot on the spot, Not something My dad liked at all. So yea for OUR Aussie or other herders if they made it to 10 they where lucky. Dad had around 42 over 15years, He couldnt keep them alive because he was an @******.

Well, glad you said it and not me.  I know that there are still parts of the country where people think it's fine to leave their dogs unvaccinated, then shoot them when they do what dogs naturally do if they are ill-bred or ill-trained, but hopefully, you have broken that cycle in your own family...

spiritdogs

Also from what I know of Aussie have always been first hand through my dads dogs. They were kept in a "rougher" conditions then what I am sure yours are. These dogs came home more times then I can count with rattle snake bites, Boar cuts, One even came home rabied. The one who cut the calf open was shot on the spot, Not something My dad liked at all. So yea for OUR Aussie or other herders if they made it to 10 they where lucky. Dad had around 42 over 15years, He couldnt keep them alive because he was an @******.

Well, glad you said it and not me.  I know that there are still parts of the country where people think it's fine to leave their dogs unvaccinated, then shoot them when they do what dogs naturally do if they are ill-bred or ill-trained, but hopefully, you have broken that cycle in your own family...

 

But yea call him that too if you like! I do every time I think about him.lol Ive never seen anyone treat there animals so baddly.. Maybe it was a good thing my mom divorced him before I was born, I hated spending my summers with him because of the way he worked on animals. =( I had a 12yo Franny that I love sooo much! She was in the middle of foaling when the baby got stuck and they couldnt remove it and she was like that for atleast 12hours* foal was already dead* So instead of taking her to the vet.. he ...took...a...double shotgun..and well I am sure you can picture what happend .

Couple things.

1) They've already decided to keep the dog, and have been doing well keeping them separated unless they're being eagle-eyed. Cowboy is a very good dog and he adores Noah. I don't want anyone to think this dog is unhappy. He's not. I'm still pushing for a thorough vet exam, bloodwork, UA, etc., just to rule out any medical reasons for this bite. He's not a biting kind of dog. He's so docile that I still, even after he's bitten my nephew, have a hard time believing he's capable of doing damage. I'm also pushing for training. It's a touchy subject though, so I'm having a hard time pushing anything lest my sister get so angry at me and the situation that she won't listen to me at all (I'm hoping I didn't do that yesterday in an argument that had nothing to do with any of this... I'll work on her husband though if I did lol).

2) The snarl was DURING the bite. It wasn't like, snarl, they ignored it, bite. They heard a snarl as he was biting. Totally different. And their couch is like 5-6 feet away from their TV, so if Noah and Cowboy were in between them and the TV, they were within 6 feet. Kind of hard not to hear a growl at that distance. And if you've never noticed ANY issue with your dog and your kid, and you grew up thinking some dogs could be trusted 100% with kids, you'd really have a problem with your kid sitting next to your dog? Doubtful.

3) I'd like to know what the alternative to having their kid and dog in a small home together is. Getting rid of the dog when they're forced to move into a small apartment? Yeah, that's responsible. Lord knows we LOVE the people who do that... Aborting the kid when they found out they were accidently pregnant, because the dog was there first and this dog who LOVES kids might have an issue down the road? Suure, that sounds good... Moving to a less expensive part of the country so you can afford a bigger home, when your husband runs his father's company? Yeah, there's a reasonable solution... So what was the option here? Dog's here, kid's here, small apartment is their only choice...what're they supposed to do?

I realize I started this thread and asked for opinions, but the unreasonable ones are just not helpful.

I'm glad that they decided to try and make things work.  Good luck with getting them to do the blood work etc.  They sound like they are doing the best they can with the situation hope things go well.  Keep us posted.

Couple things.

1) They've already decided to keep the dog, and have been doing well keeping them separated unless they're being eagle-eyed. Cowboy is a very good dog and he adores Noah. I don't want anyone to think this dog is unhappy. He's not. I'm still pushing for a thorough vet exam, bloodwork, UA, etc., just to rule out any medical reasons for this bite. He's not a biting kind of dog. He's so docile that I still, even after he's bitten my nephew, have a hard time believing he's capable of doing damage. I'm also pushing for training. It's a touchy subject though, so I'm having a hard time pushing anything lest my sister get so angry at me and the situation that she won't listen to me at all (I'm hoping I didn't do that yesterday in an argument that had nothing to do with any of this... I'll work on her husband though if I did lol).

He may not be "a biting kind of dog", although to me, the only non-biting dog is one that hasn't bitten yet (and of course we know many that never do, but I don't assume that any dog, once provoked sufficiently, would remain placid).  I think that if you can make the point nicely that training isn't only useful for sit and stay, but for learning about body language and stress signals, maybe you can make more headway.  Anyway, good luck.

2) The snarl was DURING the bite. It wasn't like, snarl, they ignored it, bite. They heard a snarl as he was biting. Totally different. And their couch is like 5-6 feet away from their TV, so if Noah and Cowboy were in between them and the TV, they were within 6 feet. Kind of hard not to hear a growl at that distance. And if you've never noticed ANY issue with your dog and your kid, and you grew up thinking some dogs could be trusted 100% with kids, you'd really have a problem with your kid sitting next to your dog? Doubtful.

I have to disagree with you there, at least insofar as leaving a kid with a dog without an adult in the room.  You may not be able to prevent every single incident that way, but you might have a better idea what actually happened and how the incident took place.

3) I'd like to know what the alternative to having their kid and dog in a small home together is. Getting rid of the dog when they're forced to move into a small apartment? Yeah, that's responsible. Lord knows we LOVE the people who do that... Aborting the kid when they found out they were accidently pregnant, because the dog was there first and this dog who LOVES kids might have an issue down the road? Suure, that sounds good... Moving to a less expensive part of the country so you can afford a bigger home, when your husband runs his father's company? Yeah, there's a reasonable solution... So what was the option here? Dog's here, kid's here, small apartment is their only choice...what're they supposed to do?

Well, a complete dog-nerd might abort, but I doubt that would be most sane couples' solution to the dog dilemma.  More often, it's get rid of the dog once you have assumed that the dog won't bite your kid and then it does...  But, that's a generalization, and not helpful here.  I think that what you do, especially if there has already been an incident, is to manage the child/dog interactions more thoroughly, get expert advice if you can afford to, and if you can't, learn all you can in other ways.  If your dog is old, sick, injured, or not child-friendly, you do the best you can to place him where he will be safe, and so will your child.  Or, you take responsibility for him in other ways if the situation is serious enough.  

I realize I started this thread and asked for opinions, but the unreasonable ones are just not helpful.

Here's a reasonable one: tell sis to take the dog to the vet as you suggested, just to be sure that there's nothing physical.  Tell her to read "Living With Kids and Dogs Without Losing Your Mind" (Colleen Pelar, available at dogwise)

There is a great new DVD entitled Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Pet.   It's over 4 hours long and has tons of invaluable information on living with dogs.  I think it would be most helpful for this family.  Cool looking dog by the way.  Hope everything works out.

Chelsea--I'm just curious. . .why is training a touchy subject for her?  Is it cause they feel like they already did that or??  Just curious, not being judgemental. 

 I'd like to know that, too, Lori.  A lot can be accomplished by being able to call your dog away from your child reliably. 

Establishing pack structure is not usually helpful, because smaller children, especially toddlers, cannot act in an adult manner.  The way you convince your dog that the children outrank him is to keep them up on the furniture and the dog on the floor, or any of a number of ways that we think we can convince the dog by, but close supervision, and separation when you can't supervise, are the most important parts of any program to keep kids safe from dogs and vice versa.

Sorry, I forgot to check this thread... 

willowchow

Chelsea--I'm just curious. . .why is training a touchy subject for her? 

No idea. She got him from the SPCA 4 years ago, and he was pretty well-behaved, so SHE'S never done any training with him. Shockingly, in 4 years with no training, he's lost a lot of his obedience. He got pretty leash-reactive for a while, but it was clearly frustration because when they exercise him regularly, he's not AT ALL reactive, and when they don't, he's a pulling-lunging-barking terror. I lent her a basic training book, but I seriously doubt she ever even opened it. And now that he hasn't bitten again, or shown any sort of aggression since that incident, she's not that worried about him. He still hasn't been checked out by a vet (because she "really doesn't think it's a medical problem." Okay lady, I forgot you went to vet school..grr), still hasn't gotten any training (because "he's well-behaved." yeah, except for that whole biting your baby's face thing.. I also forgot you were a dog trainer..)..the only thing they do differently now is if one of them isn't in the room, or isn't paying attention, they separate Cowboy and Noah by a gate. Whoop-dee-doo.

They're really not bad or even irresponsible people, they're just a little clueless, but apparently not terribly willing to GET a clue. I just don't even know what to say to them. Family's frustrating.

 I admit I was a bit worried when I saw your update - glad Cowboy hasn't gotten himself into any more trouble.  Sorry you didn't make much headway with your very good suggestions...

Dog_ma

Amen.  I had a friend with a super tolerant lab.  She allowed her son to climb all over the dog from the time he was crawling.  I used to watch and shudder internally. That is a time bomb right there.  Kids should never think it is ok to manhandle dogs, even if their dog will take it graciously.  Some other dog might not, with tragic consequences. 

I would like to add a double amen to that post!!

Not to say that Noah manhandled the dog or did anything to warrant a bite, I just agree that kids and dogs should always be supervised if possible.  My dog can't be around anyone unsupervised...he is too unpredictable.

Hoping your sister can find a workable solution. 

God bless.

Ugh. This is very similar to what happened with my minpin and my 7mo old at the time.  I am betting the dog was guarding his human/asserting that the space he was laying in was his and his only.  The dog disciplined the toddler, and in human terms, this is really unacceptable. 

Dog:  Ahhh, here I am at Dad's feet. Dad's great. He's my pack leader and provides petting and food!  Oh no, here comes toddler. I must tell him I"m higher up in pack order, I'll give him a warning  :::hard stare, stiffen body:::: (we humans miss this ALL the time!)

Boy:  yahoo lets crawl over to puppy and give him a nice smootchy! He's so soft! And funny!

Dog: Well he didn't "obey" my stare so I must discipline him to reserve my spot and my pack order NIP!  There, job's done, this is my human here and my spot, you puppy!

The right thing to do is to teach the dog that he owns nothing.  The dog cannot lay at dad's feet if the toddler is in the room.  And, toddlers can be downright rude according to dogs. They hug, kiss, pull hair and ears, bodyslam, squish, step on feet, etc etc.  So I think some NILIF training is in order for the dog and some safe dog manners be taught to the toddler.

 Present day our situation:  DS is 3.5, has better dog manners but still will get rough with them from time to time. It's where I step in and tell DS to stop chasing and show him how to properly pet the dogs.

If the minpin is up on the sofa or our laps, he is made to move when our dc approach.  He owns nothing.  Occasionally he will let out a growl at one of them when he is resting (and who can blame him, he's getting a bit grumpy at 12).  He is instantly made to move off the chair/lap and then put into a down/stay for several minutes.

 Sorry so short, I must chase after my kiddos :)
Good luck whatever your sister decides.