Discuss Other Trainers (not Cesar)?

corgipower

there are balanced trainers who also disagree with cesar, so it's not just the clicker trainers that don't seem to like him.

 I agree there are others, it just seems that with the clicker trainers it is more of a crusade rather than a disagrement.

dgriego

corgipower

there are balanced trainers who also disagree with cesar, so it's not just the clicker trainers that don't seem to like him.

 

 I agree there are others, it just seems that with the clicker trainers it is more of a crusade rather than a disagrement.

corgipower

I agree there are others, it just seems that with the clicker trainers it is more of a crusade rather than a disagrement

Where's King Richard the Lion-hearted when you need him? Get it? Crusades?

Actually, Richard I was bloodthirsty, greedy, anti-semitic and took great license with the church, offering passes into Heaven for serving in a Crusade. Many a person was robbed and converted to Christianity at the point of a sword.

Maybe we'll leave the leader of the Crusades out of this, then.

ron2

corgipower

I agree there are others, it just seems that with the clicker trainers it is more of a crusade rather than a disagrement

 

Where's King Richard the Lion-hearted when you need him? Get it? Crusades? 

Just as a note, it's not about a piece of equipment. It's a total philosophical disagreement at a very fundamental level about what dogs are, what they do and why they do what they do and how to effectively modify behavior. I have very strong feelings about the philosophical basis of what Cesar Millan does and many other people do as well. I don't see why it is that we all just have to be wishy-washy and say hmm oh well I guess everything is all good and nothing is better than anything else. For me there is a limit to what I'll accept personally as something I am down with. And I am not down with Cesar's philosophy of working with dogs. At all. And when I look for a trainer, I actively look for someone who is in agreement with me on that point because I am not about to use my dogs' wellbeing in an experiment in equanimity.

I think on a certain level it is somewhat like religion. The difference between, say, Judaism and Christianity isn't just that their houses of worship are different shapes or that they go to worship on different days. It's a fundamental difference at a deep philosophical and spiritual level.  

corgipower

LOL ummm...but you got the quote tags wrong...i wasn't the one who called it a crusade

I know but I got caught up in the image of people riding horses and wearing red cross in white pinafores pillaging the Near East.

It got away from me, sorry.

corgipower

dgriego

corgipower

there are balanced trainers who also disagree with cesar, so it's not just the clicker trainers that don't seem to like him.

 

 I agree there are others, it just seems that with the clicker trainers it is more of a crusade rather than a disagrement.

probably because cesar uses prong collars and most clicker trainers are completely opposed to the idea that there are other valid methods of training and that some of those methods use prong collars.

I don't really think that's the sole reason.  I think it has more to do with the fact that we have a general philosophy that makes us inclined to use the least invasive and most minimally aversive methods first.  Most of us who have been around a while used the chokers and the prongs, and we were taught the traditional methods.  So, for some of us, this has been a gradual transition to something less coercive and more cooperative.  And, to our pleasure, we found that the dogs, for the most part, enjoy cooperating with us when they are given a means of understanding what the heck it is we want of them.  Prongs work for many dogs.  They ruin many dogs.  The trick is knowing when it is ok to use one, and knowing how to train positively to minimize the times when you might feel inclined to do so. 

Patricia McConnell, Jan Fennell, Suzanne Clothier, Karen Pryor, Paul Owens, Ian Dunbar, Stanley Coren, and Victoria Stilwell are all trainers that I have found to be excellent, with common sense and good behavioral expertise. Not only do they promote positive methods for training, even for aggression issues, but much of what they say simply makes sense. While Cesar does espouse some of these same views, he tends to go  on about dominance a bit too much...and since too many people have the wrong idea about what makes a dog aggressive or dominant, I feel that when a trainer misuses the terms that just feeding into people's misunderstandings. These other trainers have gone deeper into why animals do what they do, and most times it's not due to the catchall aggression. They believe in getting people to learn more about their animals so they understand why dogs do the things they do, and how to live in harmony with your animal.

I agree with your post, prolibertate.  One thing that bothers me is the "Cesar says he is not a trainer" thing.  The other thing he says is that he is not is a behaviorist.  Originally, I believe the show intro'd him as a behaviorist, then suddenly that was changed to "dog behavior expert", presumably because credentialed behaviorists tipped NGC off to the correct terminology and curriculum vitae one would need to really be considered a behaviorist.  So, if he isn't a trainer OR a behaviorist, what the heck is he?  Some people say he's a "dog psychologist".  There is no degree that I know of in that subject.  So, does he at least have a degree in Psychology, which would give him background in learning theory, theories of motivation, brain function, statistical analysis, etc.?  Or, is he just like every other person who simply hangs out a shingle, which is what some of the trainers on this forum have been accused of in the past?  If his followers want to hold everyone else to a higher standard, then what qualifies Cesar to be doing what he's doing?  The people you mentioned include several who hold advanced degrees in behavioral or veterinary science, and others who apprenticed, studied, etc., and who, more importantly, continue to learn, despite that they are already eminently qualified to do what they do.
 

spiritdogs

  So, if he isn't a trainer OR a behaviorist, what the heck is he?
 

People seem determined to find the correct label for CM. Not sure why.  I personally would call him an 'Artist'. Artist as opposed to a Scientist I suppose. I think that is what sets him apart. He definately uses the right side of his brain, IMO. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the techniques people use/like/understand and their level of creativity or their scientific bent.

denise m

spiritdogs

  So, if he isn't a trainer OR a behaviorist, what the heck is he?
 

 

People seem determined to find the correct label for CM. Not sure why.  I personally would call him an 'Artist'. Artist as opposed to a Scientist I suppose. I think that is what sets him apart. He definately uses the right side of his brain, IMO. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the techniques people use/like/understand and their level of creativity or their scientific bent.

 If we cannot even define "respect" and "dominance" and "leadership" because of CM, I am in great doubt to whether we could ever come up with a label that we could agree on. I think artist is good but then I like him, those that do not may think that is to "nice" a label. To some he seems to be satan incarnate to others he is the dali lama.

 Artist works for me because I do not see him as a by the book, or by the numbers guy. He seems to work almost entirely off of instinct. ven his books (which I have read both) are very abstract and not very step by step.

Unfortunately, one doesn't have to have a license to say they're a dog trainer, and thought they can't they say they're a behaviorist if they don't have the training for it, they can call themself a behavior specialist, but what exactly does that mean? Who knows? I see too many people who call themselves trainers or behaviorists, yet who don't appear to have a clue what they're doing...and as soon as one mentions something like using a choke chain, jerking the leash, etc., I *know* they don't know what they're doing.

Frankly, I'm all for making it necessary for trainers and behaviorists to be licensed and make it mandatory that they have to continue their education...too many people out there call themselves trainers and don't really know what they're doing - and the ones who pay a heavy price for that are the dogs and their owners (I prefer the term guardians). There are places one can take behavioral courses; even child psychology courses can help; but a degree in psychology and in behavioral psychology especially, is a good place to start. Then getting training with someone who has worked with dogs for many years is beneficial, as is reading everything you can about dogs, their behavior, the psychology behind them, etc., attending courses, and working with animals in shelters, rescue, etc.

I'm not sure why, but when I watched Cesar's show, I just got a bad feeling in my gut; and as my instinct has never failed me yet, I'm heeding it and staying away from his 'methods'. There are so many good trainers and behaviorists out there, who, while they may not have their own show, are very good at what they do and have made a tremendous, positive difference in many dogs' and their guardians' lives. These are the ones I look to as part of continuing my education.