Discuss Other Trainers (not Cesar)?

You must add Ed Frawley to the mix.....that will really get a convo going....lol

snownose

You must add Ed Frawley to the mix.....that will really get a convo going....lol

 LOL corgi! But you have corgi power!

There are lots of great articles here and here

snownose

You must add Ed Frawley to the mix.....that will really get a convo going....lol

 LOL

 I know very little about Frawley, I have visited his website and read many of his articles because someone was debating about him on another forum I visit. He is a strange one for sure and yes a debate about him would be more heated than one about Cesar. He is a Koheler type who seems to be even more extreme than old school Koheler (Kohler has upgraded his book I believe)  I can't say that I could defend him as I have Cesar, although much of his articles are good and valid the fact that he goes off like a madman on occasion and that he advocates beating dog aggressive dogs with sticks and hanging human aggressive dogs (although these are really bad cases) by their necks until they pass out prevents me from ever being able or wanting to defend him. The best I can do for him is say that some of his stuff is valid and most of his more forceful techniques are reserved for extreme cases, although I think that if a dog is in that extreme a position where hanging is the only resport I would PTS as I could never do that or see it done. If trust in all humans has erroded to this point the poor dog is better off dead.

 He has a lot of followers, he is successful, many if not most of his followers never use any of the extreme stuff he talks about and would really be classified (IMO) as  (new style) Khoeler trainers.

 All in all it might be a short debate since there is a lot of his stuff that I would be hard pressed to defend and someone would have to take the defending position in order to even debate him. Maybe a discussion would be more enlightening.

 Are there any Frawley supporters on this forum?

dgriego

 Are there any Frawley supporters on this forum?

((echo))

((echo))

 
((echo))

dgriego

He is a Koheler type who seems to be even more extreme than old school Koheler

 He has a lot of followers, he is successful, many if not most of his followers never use any of the extreme stuff he talks about and would really be classified (IMO) as  (new style) Khoeler trainers.

 All in all it might be a short debate since there is a lot of his stuff that I would be hard pressed to defend and someone would have to take the defending position in order to even debate him. Maybe a discussion would be more enlightening.

 Are there any Frawley supporters on this forum?

corgipower

i have read his articles, there was a time when i was active on his forum...there are some on his forum who are pretty good and fair in dog training. my take on frawley is that he is old school, but then again he has been at it since old school was the new thing ;) his methods and theories seem to have adjusted somewhat, still more compulsive than i like though. i did train under tom rose, who is friends with frawley. my main reason for not liking frawley is on a personal level...

 I am not familiar with Tom Rose. I also joined Frawley's forum but really have not visited or paid much attention to it. I read a lot of his articles and many made perfect sense to me and I saw nothing wrong with them, it was only the two that I questioned, (and I did not read them all) and those were the two where he talked about beating a dog that was displaying aggression towards another dog with a beating stick and the article did not seem to be implying a spanking, but more of a all out beating, and the other was the one for very aggressive dogs that were attacking t heir handlers and in that one he talked about inciting the dog to attack him, then hanging it up in the air until it passed out and repeating this as often as needed.

 I know of a few on another forum that are active in his, and they do well with their dogs. I guess it would be a matter of taking what is useful and discarding what is not, but IMO having the wrong person read one of his articles and act it out with their own dog is kinda sad and IMO far more damaging than having someone watch an episode of DW and attempt his techniques.

 What is truly sad is that he must have seen enough cases and used these techniques often enough to warrant even writing about it. I am hoping that he does this to irrate people and is in fact not as awful or violent as these articles implied. He seems like the sort that likes to get people's underwear all twisted up.

Some of his stuff is common sense, some of it super extreme.....like hanging handler aggressive dogs.....but, then AGAIN, how far would some of us go to save a beloved companion.......I don't know what I would do if I had to decide between pts or that method.......I just don't know....

Chuffy

I vote Clothier (as she is one of my favourites) or Fennell as she has ideas based on an outdated idea of the "wolf model" yet still appears to have success with no physical force/corrections/fear/pain.... should make for interesting discussion I think.

 I am up for either of these

snownose

Some of his stuff is common sense, some of it super extreme.....like hanging handler aggressive dogs.....but, then AGAIN, how far would some of us go to save a beloved companion.......I don't know what I would do if I had to decide between pts or that method.......I just don't know....

 I could not go this far, to me it would violate the thing that I hold in the highest regard and that is the trust that is established between my dogs and I. That is almost a sacred thing IMO.

dgriego

 I could not go this far, to me it would violate the thing that I hold in the highest regard and that is the trust that is established between my dogs and I. That is almost a sacred thing IMO.

I understand what you are saying....I am a bleeding heart when it comes to saving animals, I have been known to drag just about anything of the streets and try to save it....and sometimes couldn't, that was really hard.

In my one dog one cat opinion, Frawley makes Cesar look like a soft touch. Frawley has levels of punishment that go up to and include hanging a dog until near dead. That is, he aims to make the punishment "effective" on the first use. I get the impression that he looks down upon training with treats as weak.

I would rather endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (had to sneak in a little Shakespeare) of using a clicker than hang the dog.

I like Clothier and she doesn't have any academic creds. She is, in fact, a breeder of GSDs.

I like some of Dunbar's assessments and observations. For example, not all dog aggression is true aggression and should be analyzed carefully to determine whether it's just a rough-play greeting, a settling of terms, or, indeed, an unresovable dispute. He, too, has credits of dealing with aggressive dogs and even had a show for a while but evidently, it didn't get the ratings to keep on. He is now mostly known for campaigning for starting training in puppies.

Of course, I like Karen Pryor and her ability to translate complex scientific studies into language the layman can read.

ron2

I like Clothier and she doesn't have any academic creds. She is, in fact, a breeder of GSDs.

Yes, we know......I respect Clothier.....do you know if she is involved in rescue?

snownose

Yes, we know......I respect Clothier.....do you know if she is involved in rescue?

Dang it, you would ask a question to which I don't have the answer. I guess we'll have to find out.