Discuss Other Trainers (not Cesar)?

ron2

....part of science is direct observation. Which seems a large part of Clothier's style. Plus, she may seem more accessible because she speaks and understands as a layperson. Sometimes, a scientific explanation can be a bit heady.

Yes, but she's read all those dry, boring scientific studies, (so you don't have to, lol!), and she has a way of boiling it all down, explaining it in the simplest, most logical way, through the eyes of a dog. On the surface her relationship method of training can seem a bit mystical and "out there", but it's based on trust and respect - she respects her dogs, and expects her dogs to respect her, and also on science. When I saw her at the seminar in March she said most of the books she'd read lately had nothing to do with dogs at all. 

You are absolutely right that she relies on direct observation. As she says, "the dog tells me everything I need to know". The sheet to fill out if you wanted her to use your dog as a demo was only about a half page long. She said it's interesting to hear what the owner thinks is the problem because that tells her what the owner is hung up on, but she really goes on her observation of the dog and his/her relationship with the owner. She wants to see a connection there, a sense that they are with each other, not merely attached by a leash.

She does believe in giving your dog as much information as possible, and that includes verbal corrections.

Cassidys Mom

Yes, but she's read all those dry, boring scientific studies, (so you don't have to, lol!), and she has a way of boiling it all down, explaining it in the simplest, most logical way, through the eyes of a dog.

Cassidys Mom

She wants to see a connection there, a sense that they are with each other, not merely attached by a leash.

Cassidys Mom

You are absolutely right that she relies on direct observation. As she says, "the dog tells me everything I need to know".

And we have a trainer here that does the same thing, even has creds (not that they always matter, even in my trade) but many have strongly disagreed with her. And I'm not sure if it's due to the lack of being widely published, or not. Sometimes, I think we're all agreeing on the same thing but don't realize it because semantics and/or personality get in the way, imo.

Do you know why people strongly disagree with the trainer you know about simply observing the dog? One thing that Suzanne talked about was people carrying around baggage for their dogs, especially rescues. She told of an example in a seminar where someone brought in their rescue dog and described in great detail this dogs poor sad history, and the resulting issues she'd been dealing with ever since - shyness, fear, blah blah blah.

Suzanne asked people in the audience to call out words describing the behavior they observed. Among the words were "happy", "curious", "confident", "social", words that described a normal well adjusted dog. This woman had worked very hard with her dog, and done a great job. The dog had moved on, but she was hung up on her dog's history and was still carrying around all this baggage. That's why she doesn't want or need long detailed explanations of WHY people think their dog is doing something. She wants to know what the issues are as concisely as possible, (what is the dog doing?), and then watch the person and the dog together. She spent a lot of time with each team - each 8 hour day of the seminar she only worked with 2-3 demo dogs.
 

Cassidys Mom

This woman had worked very hard with her dog, and done a great job. The dog had moved on, but she was hung up on her dog's history and was still carrying around all this baggage.

 This is something I feel pretty strongly about as well. A lot of dog behaviour problems are caused or allowed to continue because we expect them or we justify them. This is one of the things that CM also says and although many may disagree with his methods his assumptions are correct (IMO). If you expect or justify the behaviour you will continue to get that behaviour. Dogs get over issues far more quickly than we do it is us that need to "drop the baggage" so to speak and move on fully expecting that our dog is as normal as the next one.

 So I guess it is Clothier we will be discussing since more people have mentioned her and are familiar with her. I would also be interested in discussing others I am less familiar with and have placed a few authors books on my "wish list" to pursue further.

dgriego

A lot of dog behaviour problems are caused or allowed to continue because we expect them or we justify them. This is one of the things that CM also says and although many may disagree with his methods his assumptions are correct (IMO). If you expect or justify the behaviour you will continue to get that behaviour

And I actually agree with that. And I have seen one or two cases where the baggage is carried by the human. And that carrying that baggage could be detrimental to the dog because it affects how the human interacts with the dog. But, I have often been told that I don't know what I am talking about so my opinion and $1.50 will get you a soda.

So far, as I can see, on the authors we all know, such as Clothier, we all tend to agree. Not much to dispute about. I don't think anyone took up the part on Dunbar. Such as analysis of true dog aggression and how we should deal with it. Or should we just let them hash it out and wait until blood is drawn to call it a problem? Not that he truly advocates that but he does wish for people to be better at reading the signals from their dogs.

How about Jean? Outspoken, not afraid to speak her opinion if she disagrees with someone. Maybe even reactionary, at least in rhetoric. But does it keep her from being an effective trainer? That is, you may not always like the person but their method could still be valid. And can we humans be objective? Or will a certain word spoken in a certain way, bring about emotions that cloud our ability to understand anything else?

I guess I'm not seeing any disagreement with the more positive authors when examined on their own merits, styles, or even writing styles. I only see them being disputed when compared to he who shall remain nameless. And no, I'm not baiting, as far as I can see. But we certainly had more pages of intriguing debate with the non-linear dog study from the Prague. I guess what I am wondering is if the lack of debate is because there's not much to debate within this area of dog training literature? We've had other discussions before about scientific method and someone else would try to bring relativity in to it and I have an unfair advantage in that area.

Or could it be that within this area of training thought, there's not much to debate as there is not much that needs justification? That it is self-evident? Or too boring?

snownose

ron2

I like Clothier and she doesn't have any academic creds. She is, in fact, a breeder of GSDs.

 

 

Yes, we know......I respect Clothier.....do you know if she is involved in rescue?

Every trainer or behaviorist is involved in rescue in the sense that they often prevent relinquishment in the first place.   I'm sure Suzanne is no exception, given her work with aggressive dogs.

I really like that idea of not assigning baggage to the dog.  I just assume that whatever happened to a dog before, there's nothing I can do to change the past, so I just start from square one, from where the dog is at the moment I meet him.  Sometimes, come to find out, we are pretty wrong about the nature of the baggage anyway.  

spiritdogs

so I just start from square one, from where the dog is at the moment I meet him.  Sometimes, come to find out, we are pretty wrong about the nature of the baggage anyway

I agree with that. Though, I often think that Shadow's baggage about kennels is a result of his first experiences being in a pet store, stuck in a cage for an indeterminate time, waiting to be sold. The clerks are too busy not answering questions to be socializing the dogs and taking them for short walks.

I have Stricklands book "Expert Obedience Training for Dogs" on my wish list. I am not familar with her other than wanting to read her book.

 In another thread someone posted a link to Karen Pryor, who without a doubt is a dog lady and a good one. I do not want to derail that thread and this one seemed as good a place as any to comment on it. I spent some time at her site (I also own one of her books) and she has much of value to say. My problem with her is that you can tell very clearly from her site that she not only disagrees with Cesar Millan, but also is involved in an active crusade against him, at least that is how it looks to me. This puts me off not because I think Millan is a god and can do no wrong, it is just the manner in which she does it. Millan is most certainly a devil in her eyes and I can see from her site why many of her followers are so against him.

 She has opened up her extensive video library to the public as a counter to Cesar’s video library. She has a lot of experience with dogs and is a successful trainer and to me (maybe it’s just me) she is not winning any Cesar fans to her cause with the manner in which she comes against him. Mind you having all her video’s made public will be useful to many people.

 I think having her and Cesar fight would make a great Celebrity Deathmatch (remember the little clay people that duke it out on that show?) and it would be a funny one.

Has something major about her site changed since last I was there? I don't remember there being anything like what you describe on it. I just went to take a quick peek and I don't see anything different from the way it always has been. And there have always been free videos in addition to the ones you pay for there--where does it say they've begun to offer more to "counter" Cesar? And why is that a bad thing anyway? More information is always better.

 is this her site? Her picture is at the top so I assumed it was

http://www.clickertraining.com/search/node/millan

http://www.clickertraining.com/search/node/dog+whisperer

http://www.clickertraining.com/search/node/cesar

 I do confess after going back to look the articles in question were not written by her. Here is an bit of the video posting article which mentions Cesar and his methods

"The all-positive training methods offered on ClickFlicks use clicker training, an increasingly popular punishment-free technique that Karen Pryor helped to pioneer, now employed by top animal trainers, oceanariums, and zoos around the world as well as by thousands of pet trainers and owners globally. The efficiency and power of clicker training appeals to the many pet owners and professional trainers who won't use training methods based on dominance, fear, and the kind of "discipline" promoted by Cesar Millan, among others."

 From the post about the Great Dane and slippery floors

"But people are often looking for that instant cure. Instant cures like this can come with negative side effects, but "The Dog Whisperer" is a TV show, where Millan's training failures or negative side effects of punishment are edited out!  It could be that now Kane will shake and drool and never let a guy like Millan get close to him again..."

and perhaps the root of the problem?

"As a business owner with vested interest in clicker training, these questions aren't academic to me. That single broadcast just made it a little harder for every clicker trainer in the US to win new customers. Oprah showcasing the Dog Whisperer got under my skin because millions of people were just "told" by cultural icon Oprah that dominance is the way to go in developing a relationship with your dog! Talk about irony. Isn't Oprah all about healthy relationships? Like so many of you, I want to see clicker trainers, rather than traditional dominance trainers, make it to Oprah. Apart from the humanitarian motivation, exposure on Oprah would help clicker training grow and help get closer to a more ambitious objective: clicker training as the people's first choice for training their pets."\

a crusade maybe?

"Have you had it with Cesar Millan? The month of May seemed like nonstop Cesar. First there was a profile in the New York Times Sunday Magazine. Then there was a fawning article in the New Yorker, followed by another appearance on Oprah. It's like the Millan tsunami. It's time we made our own wave. Together we can do it. Get your video cameras charged and loaded."

  But  I do apologize to Karen for at first thinking these were her comments. After re-reading them it is her picture at the top of the site and multiple authors.

Yes there is a section of the site that are just blogs by other trainers and it's not been a secret for a long time now that many other trainers inmany different venues have written pieces that publicly disagree with Cesar Millan. They are professionals disagreeing with another professional and that site serves both the clicker training newbie and the professional clicker trainer as a forum.

I have never, though, seen the problem in professionals have a public disagreement. I don't find it unprofessional at all. I like to know what people's opinions are. None of the things said in those blogs is any different from anything anyone has said on this site on the topic. Trainers across the country have put on their websites personal essays that deal with the Cesar issue, and I know from speaking to several trainers that the reason is because of his popularity people go to training classes of all kinds assuming that Cesar-style training is dog training, period, full stop. They don't know the difference between different styles and methodologies of training. And they don't know why someone wouldn't train like the big famous water-walking Cesar and the middle of an obedience class is not really the best time to explain that to a client.