Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

My point is that I think the use of the word "attack", or "bash" for that matter is useless and, well, a little odd.  I haven't seen anyone jumping in to defend Tom Cruise or Britney Spears when their actions get slated in celebrity threads in NDR. 

Cesar Milan may be a dog trainer but he is also a CELEBRITY, and he is a celebrity because of his own choices and actions.  He didn't wake up one day and say to himself "hey, I'm famous! I didn't want this!".  Exposing your actions to the public at large holds an inherent risk that not everyone is going to like what you do an some people are going to be vocal about it.  He MUST have understood that beforehand, and even if he didn't he certainly must understand it now.

I think there is a HUGE difference between "Cesar Milan is an idiot" and "you are an idiot because you use Cesar Milan's methods".  The first is acceptable to both think AND vocalise.  The second is acceptable to think but vocalising it might get you (a general you) a private chat with a mod.  Obviously in a perfect world people wouldn't think the latter at all, and everyone would understand that there are many roads to Rome.  Nonetheless humans can be a judgmental lot and we can't really dictate that it should never be so, only that people should really keep their offensive thoughts to themselves.  Someone saying that Cesar is an idiot should NOT BE offensive to those who follow his methods, any more than me saying "I hate oranges" is offensive to someone who has an orange tree in their backyard.

4IC, talk about completely misreading a post.  I was talking in generalities based on my experience and threads that are probably 8 months old, in both the former CM section and the former Clicker Training section.  Look up the definition of debate versus dialogue.  Positions are locked for debates.  I prefer dialogue because I am open to change my views and I want the other side to understand and possibly change their views, with both possibly learning from the exchange. 

Benedict

Someone saying that Cesar is an idiot should NOT BE offensive to those who follow his methods, any more than me saying "I hate oranges" is offensive to someone who has an orange tree in their backyard.

LOL Yes, it's true. AND it comes back to the "very dear to their heart" thing. I agree with you completely. But I think I understand why people take it personally. It goes back to the comparison to religion. If you say, to a religious person, "Jesus is an idiot", they're going to have a personal reaction, because religion is close to their hearts. Unless the guy with the orange tree is REALLY CLOSE to that orange tree,   he's not going to have a personal reaction or response.

I think many people feel like Cesar has saved their lives or their dogs' lives and they are SO grateful to him, they hate to see him insulted. I don't feel that way, but I can understand why some people do. And I agree, they need to let him handle it. He's a big boy. He doesn't need to be defended.

Ixas_girl

Ixas_girl

 There seems to be a bounty on the head of Cesar Millan. Silly me, I forget who issued it, and what's in the purse for the victor. A little help?

 

Something that's come up in this thread that interests me is the idea that defensiveness against Millan-bashing is in itself divisive.

Obviously Millan-bashing won't stop, so what are better ways to field misrepresentations and attacks of the man and his methods? 

Ok, I'll answer my own question with my thoughts.

Instead of being defensive or launching counter-attacks, how about simply pointing out errors in representation and offering a correction (lol at my pun ). For example, once I saw a statement that was discrediting Millan's methods, saying that he is a bully and mistreats women. My response was to ask the source of such a claim, then describe Millan's chapter on calm submissive, in which he learned to become submissive to his wife. Rather than getting defensive and emotional, my response simply used information. Of course, there was no rebuttal.

Four is a great role model in this type of discourse. I admire her posts for their clarity in communicating; she doesn't often let the little jabs get to her, but she doesn't suffer them, either. One of the reasons I think her communication style is so great is not only her clarity, but also her genuine interest in bridging gaps, and enjoying difference.

So, what do you all think? Another way to handle it is simply ignoring. How well do you think that works? 

DPU

4IC, talk about completely misreading a post. 

Hey, I was asking you real questions. I was not accusing you or anything. I think you may have misinterpreted MY post.   I really wanted to know if you see me as one of the opposing side. Real question.

You didn't make it clear that you were talking about posts from 8 months ago, before I even came here, so how would I know that? I thought you were talking about this thread. I thought maybe I could help address the questions you were asking if I knew what they were, but if they're from 8 months ago, then clearly, I cannot. But I wasn't being snarky, I was asking real questions.

And you didn't answer my questions. That's ok, but it doesn't bode well for dialog.

FourIsCompany

I think many people feel like Cesar has saved their lives or their dogs' lives and they are SO grateful to him, they hate to see him insulted.

And I can see that point, however I think it is indicative of a wider reaching issue:  That people do not have enough confidence in their OWN abilities, nor do they give themselves enough credit for success.  "Cesar Milan saved my dog" is easier to say and believe, whereas "with a lot of hard work I saved my own dog" just sounds boastful even if it's true.  And THAT is only if people even think to get to that stage...there are many who don't even feel confident enough to attempt the solution themselves, and find it much easier to hand off to an expert.  And I don't mean "easier" in a cop-out kind of way.

Every single person here, and the vast majority of dog owners at large, has the capability to become an expert at training their own dog and probably other dogs as well.  The ONLY thing standing in our way is education, experience, a little chutzpah and a healthy dose of open-mindedness.  Cesar is where he is, and worshiped by many, because he realised that.  That's it...the man has no magic powers, he has nothing the rest of us don't, save for what most wildly successful people have: a little less of the instinct to shoot ourselves down because "we can't do that".

Benedict

That people do not have enough confidence in their OWN abilities, nor do they give themselves enough credit for success. 

Excellent post. I agree 100%! If there's one thing I am, it's confident. Not arrogant (though some disagree ) but confident. And sadly, I believe most people are even raised to feel that they need to turn their problems over to someone who can handle them, as if they don't have access to the same resources everyone else has.

That was just a really excellent post, Kate! Chock full of truthiness! LOL  

Benedict

I haven't seen anyone jumping in to defend Tom Cruise or Britney Spears when their actions get slated in celebrity threads in NDR. 

Apples and oranges. If people were bashing Tom Cruise in order to discredit Scientology, Scientologists would object.

When people bash Millan to discredit leadership, corrections, and physical handling, there's more at stake than simply "feel-good" celebrity bashing.

~~~~~~

And, Four, I agree, Millan and Co. can take care of itself. I'm certainly not on the PR payroll. But when the man and his ideas are attacked in order to discredit ideals I hold dear (like leadership, energy, physicality) ... that's when I think a better strategy than defensiveness or counter attack is worth looking at.

It's not apples and oranges, given that this thread was originally started to question those who dislike Cesar without making a rational argument as to why.  By your own admission they do not lay out rational arguments, they just get emotional and say that they don't like what he does.  So...same thing.

I admit to being at an utter loss as to why our own confidences are so shaken by people questioning them.  If leadership, corrections and physical handling are dear to your heart, then fine.  Exactly how does someone questioning that, or even "attacking" the champion of such methods affect your (or anyone in the same position)  personal day-to-day interaction with your dog?

This is really a serious question.  Why does it matter?  Do we all have such little faith in our own abilities that the questioning of them, in any way, makes us feel threatened? 

 that's when I think a better strategy than defensiveness or counter attack is worth looking at.

That's certainly one strategy...but not sure it's one the man himself find useful. He is much too laid back, IMO. Watching his show...he doesn't seem like one that'd use counter attacks on a message board to pre-emptvely defend himself...he's always struck me as "what they say is what they say...what I do is what I do...and if the two don't meet...so be it..." type.

FourIsCompany

Hey, I was asking you real questions. I was not accusing you or anything. I think you may have misinterpreted MY post.   I really wanted to know if you see me as one of the opposing side. Real question.

Depends on the topic and the issues within.  I may have the same view or could be the total opposite.  I don't care if you are huge CM fan but by making that declaration directly to me don't you think you boxing me in as anti-CM.  I don't care about your source of training knowledge, but how you apply that knowledge to the dog, given that different training methods work better depending on the dog.  Don't you think dog knowledge is the first consideration before applying a training method or attempting a behavior modification?

Ixas_girl

But when the man and his ideas are attacked in order to discredit ideals I hold dear (like leadership, energy, physicality) ... that's when I think a better strategy than defensiveness or counter attack is worth looking at.

I guess my strategy in that case is to say, "Hey, it works GREAT for me." That's all I really care about. Yeah, these concepts are dear to me, but I don't need anyone else to see, know or understand that. I KNOW my dogs read my energy and I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't have that as part of their repertoire. I KNOW I have a pack and I am the leader. I am alpha and I'll shout it from the rooftops. LOL But I don't have to convince anyone that what I'm doing is right or even 'not wrong'. They can think I'm "poisoning my relationship with my dog" if they want! LOL That's so ridiculous, it doesn't even deserve a response from me.

I agree that something better than defensiveness or counterattack is the way to go. But I guess each person has to decide on what that is for themselves. For me, it's an attitude of "whatever". I hold them dear, too, but the last thing that can reach what I hold dear is someone's words on a discussion forum, know what I mean?

DPU

I don't care if you are huge CM fan but by making that declaration directly to me don't you think you boxing me in as anti-CM. 

No. I don't know your position on CM. I don't ever remember reading anything about your position on him, so no.  

DPU

Don't you think dog knowledge is the first consideration before applying a training method or attempting a behavior modification?

I never actually thought about it in those terms, but thinking about it now, I"m going to have to say no. I don't. I expect "experts" in the field to have the dog knowledge. Then I observe their results, use my own common sense and intuition to see what "feels" right, and take everything I've ever read about dogs (which is considerable) and come up with my own method of practical steps and solutions.

I'm not a behaviorist and I certainly haven't studied dogs all my life, but I do ok with what I have.  

Benedict

I admit to being at an utter loss as to why our own confidences are so shaken by people questioning them.  If leadership, corrections and physical handling are dear to your heart, then fine.  Exactly how does someone questioning that, or even "attacking" the champion of such methods affect your (or anyone in the same position)  personal day-to-day interaction with your dog?

 I am sure I would react in the same manner if someone accused me of cruelty to my children, call me strict if you must, but never cruel as I would die before ever harming one of my children.

 I will be fair and say that in most cases a reference to cruelty set me off, but in the end I believe that almost everyone involved in the discussions ended up with at least an understanding that cruelty was not the issue.

Benedict

 Why does it matter?  Do we all have such little faith in our own abilities that the questioning of them, in any way, makes us feel threatened? 

My Answer...WOW!!

Can I borrow that hammer cause you just hit the nail on the head!!