Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

FourIsCompany

I never actually thought about it in those terms, but thinking about it now, I"m going to have to say no. I don't. I expect "experts" in the field to have the dog knowledge. Then I observe their results, use my own common sense and intuition to see what "feels" right, and take everything I've ever read about dogs (which is considerable) and come up with my own method of practical steps and solutions.

I'm not a behaviorist and I certainly haven't studied dogs all my life, but I do ok with what I have.  

I don't understand your "no" answer if you modify what the experts do or blend methods.  You get comfortable for yourself or because you are considering the dog?  Your personal knowledge of the dog's likes, dislikes, motivations, moods and anxiety are not taken into consideration first?  It sounds like you create a plan based on your personal knowledge of the dog.  I chose Clicker traiing over reward-correction because of the dog's mental state and the dog's reactions to aversions or corrections. 

amstaffy

Benedict

 Why does it matter?  Do we all have such little faith in our own abilities that the questioning of them, in any way, makes us feel threatened? 

My Answer...WOW!!

Can I borrow that hammer cause you just hit the nail on the head!!

Its not a matter of little faith or questioning one's own ability....its a matter of making right the wrong, doing the best you can given the framework to work in.

DPU

Its not a matter of little faith or questioning one's own ability....its a matter of making right the wrong.

Does world peace also come into that catagory?

dgriego

I take great pride in being a responsible dog owner and one that has genuine love and devotion both to my own pets and to others less fortunate. To be labeled cruel upsets me.

I can understand that, too.

Another thing that comes into play is that I simply want other people to open their minds a little bit! LOL It seems like some people (certainly not all) think that their way is the ONLY way. That they have all the "right" dog knowledge, all the "right" experience and all the "right" information to make the "right" choice for every dog, including mine. And that just seems so closed-minded to me, I just want to get another tool (a crowbar) and pry their minds open just a little to let the crack of openness permit another possibility to enter. They don't have to accept it as their own, I just would like them to see it and really think, "well, if it works for you, that's great." I would just like for them to refrain from judgment (and judging ME) in exchange for the attitude that maybe I do know my dogs best and maybe they don't know everything there is to know about dogs after all.

But, you know what? For some people, that's too much to expect. So I just have to open my mind further and accept that that's the way they are and that's the way they're going to be. And it's not my job to change them (even though I WANT to).  

So, it's not ALL about lack of one's own confidence in their own methods, but I think that's a factor sometimes. I think there are also other factors.  

DPU

I don't understand your "no" answer

What I mean is that I don't have to have a degree in dog behavior. Of course I consider the dog. Not only the personality or temperament of particular dogs and breeds, but what I know about the canine from my self-education on the subject. I just misunderstood your question at first, I guess. Sorry

Benedict

I think there is a HUGE difference between "Cesar Milan is an idiot" and "you are an idiot because you use Cesar Milan's methods".  The first is acceptable to both think AND vocalise.  The second is acceptable to think but vocalising it might get you (a general you) a private chat with a mod.  Obviously in a perfect world people wouldn't think the latter at all, and everyone would understand that there are many roads to Rome.  Nonetheless humans can be a judgmental lot and we can't really dictate that it should never be so, only that people should really keep their offensive thoughts to themselves.  Someone saying that Cesar is an idiot should NOT BE offensive to those who follow his methods, any more than me saying "I hate oranges" is offensive to someone who has an orange tree in their backyard.

I agree with that, but could you imagine the chaos if some members would call Pryor, or Clothier an idiot, simply by not agreeing with their methods? Or better yet, they make me want to puke....lol.....which is pretty rough, but has been said about CM......so, one has to ask one self, where are the real extremists.....

amstaffy

DPU

Its not a matter of little faith or questioning one's own ability....its a matter of making right the wrong.

Does world peace also come into that catagory?

You can achieve peace by an all out war and the victors left standing will maintain the peace.  Or you can use my approach...over a long period of time...taking it inch by inch... knowing the edges....and having the gift of harp. 

LOL Jaime, anytime.

Surely, though, applying the tools that ring true to us with sufficient confidence and consistency is the BEST way to open someone else's mind?  The results speak for themselves, and if someone else wants their dog to act the way yours (general yours) does then they ask how you achieved it.  People will only open their minds if they choose to - I hold no belief that anyone will change their way of thinking if they were not already predisposed to do so and looking for answers better suited to them than the ones they already had.  Anyone who was not already inclined to change their mind will not be brought to a new way of thinking no matter how good the intentions of the person trying to convince them.

Letting our dogs speak for our methods is the greatest advertising tool we have.  And in fact, I think it does our dogs a disservice to bandy about terms like "right" and "wrong" when it comes to training.  The biggest and most important factor in my training of my dog is my own self-assurance that I have the capability to do so, which lends itself to being a foundation of the leadership I have over him.  Tell someone else they are wrong for long enough and they will lose the courage of their own convictions even if they continue along the same path, and NOTHING is more confusing to a dog than an owner who appears not to know what they are doing.  

Ixas_girl

Benedict

I haven't seen anyone jumping in to defend Tom Cruise or Britney Spears when their actions get slated in celebrity threads in NDR. 

 

Apples and oranges. If people were bashing Tom Cruise in order to discredit Scientology, Scientologists would object.

When people bash Millan to discredit leadership, corrections, and physical handling, there's more at stake than simply "feel-good" celebrity bashing.

~~~~~~

And, Four, I agree, Millan and Co. can take care of itself. I'm certainly not on the PR payroll. But when the man and his ideas are attacked in order to discredit ideals I hold dear (like leadership, energy, physicality) ... that's when I think a better strategy than defensiveness or counter attack is worth looking at.

There have been a number of very nasty things said on here about President Bush and the military actions in the Middle East (much more nasty than what has been said about CM), and that is something that is very personal to many people.  Much more personal, I would argue, than dog training.  Heck there are many of us who have loved ones who literally live and die by the decisions that come down from the White House.  However, I don't see tons of "poor misunderstood President Bush" threads threads......

sillysally

There have been a number of very nasty things said on here about President Bush and the military actions in the Middle East (much more nasty than what has been said about CM), and that is something that is very personal to many people.  Much more personal, I would argue, than dog training.  Heck there are many of us who have loved ones who literally live and die by the decisions that come down from the White House.  However, I don't see tons of "poor misunderstood President Bush" threads threads......

This is not a political forum, this is a dog forum....but, if you go to a political forum you will see that type Bush bashing......

snownose

if you go to a political forum you will see that type Bush bashing......

Umm no...you can see it here. LOL...

Again...if you really believe what you believe...why does it even matter what someone else says?

Has anyone answered that yet?

Benedict

Surely, though, applying the tools that ring true to us with sufficient confidence and consistency is the BEST way to open someone else's mind? 

It's true. I didn't say it was a reasonable desire. LOL In fact, I know it's impossible. That doesn't stop me from wanting it. 

And enough of the great posts, already! Will ya?

Benedict

Letting our dogs speak for our methods is the greatest advertising tool we have.  And in fact, I think it does our dogs a disservice to bandy about terms like "right" and "wrong" when it comes to training.  The biggest and most important factor in my training of my dog is my own self-assurance that I have the capability to do so, which lends itself to being a foundation of the leadership I have over him.  Tell someone else they are wrong for long enough and they will lose the courage of their own convictions even if they continue along the same path, and NOTHING is more confusing to a dog than an owner who appears not to know what they are doing.  

Ditto!

There is no black and white, right or wrong when it comes to training since every dog and owner is different. It's great to open up to other methods even those that are old techniques that worked or are labeled as reinvented. Sure there are trainers who are successful in every venue of training as they have followers to their methods, it's been proven on this forum alone and it is surely wide spread if our members are so passionate.

 What really gets to me is the fact that the lines are so drawn and defensive on both sides that some can't see the forest for the trees. It makes me crazy to see members at each other when I imagine people come to forums like this because they share the same interests and one would think that the sharing of opinions would lead to well rounded trainers/owners but instead it always comes back to tit for tat...on both sides

Edited to remove bold...sorry wasn't paying attention

FourIsCompany

And enough of the great posts, already! Will ya?

Eh....when I feel like it.   

amstaffy

It makes me crazy to see members at each other when I imagine people come to forums like this because they share the same interests and one would think that the sharing of opinions would lead to well rounded trainers/owners but instead it always comes back to tit for tat...on both sides

That's really why I think these discussions are so important. Because we all know there are many more readers than there are participants. Because if people on this side, that side, the top and the bottom can come together and have discussions like this, and everyone reads them, it becomes the more accepted and acceptable way to communicate on the forum. And people who communicate outside of the polite, respectful dialog frankly become the "sore thumbs". And honest, open discussion becomes the norm.