Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

Ixas_girl

I'm confused ... is the thread still open for all folks, or just some folks?

 I think some took amstaff's move on comment as a "locking the post move on comment" when I think she meant move on as in "get over it already".

aplologies amstaff if that is not the case

Ixas_girl

I'm confused ... is the thread still open for all folks, or just some folks?

This thread was never closed

espencer

even when exercise is required some trainers still dont talk to the owners about walking their dog in any way (structured or not)

I wasn't aware that there were positive trainers that were not talking about walking. I would think that most trainers, positive R or P would be about ensuring correct behavior during a walk. That's why some use GL or Easy Walk and others might use prong or Illusion. Or an range of motivations from corrections to rewards to bring about the right behavior for walking. It's just that the emphasis is not on just the walking as a need to fulfill, but that a well-behaved walk is fulfilling to all.

ron2

I wasn't aware that there were positive trainers that were not talking about walking.

Mudpuppy is on record here saying that a walk does not give the dog the exercise needed, unless she has reversed herself.

DPU

ron2

I wasn't aware that there were positive trainers that were not talking about walking.

Mudpuppy is on record here saying that a walk does not give the dog the exercise needed, unless she has reversed herself.

Is mudpuppy a dog trainer, or just a dog owner? 

Maybe this is a good place to point something out.

(And could we not make this thread about members here and what their qualifications are??? Please??? The rush to judge all +R proponents by the words of one extreme view is just silly! It's stereotyping and worthless and WAY off topic. And there's not a darn thing wrong with an extreme view, it's just not representative of the whole group and it's NOT FAIR to anyone to lump them all into one group any more than it is to lump all "Cesar fans" into one group. Come ON! We know this!)

Now back to my point. When Cesar Millan says "Exercise, discipline and affection, in that order" He doesn't NOT mean that you wake up in the morning and before you love your dog, you must take him out to walk for 4 hours, then apply a little discipline, whether they need it or not, THEN, if there's time in the day, you may show a reserved amount of affection.

It's not about doing things on a timeline. "In that order" means order of importance. The most important offer you can make to your dog to provide a well-rounded and balanced existence is exercise. If you're going to do one thing only for your dog, make it exercise.

Then, the next most important thing you can do for your dog to make sure he's balanced and well-adjusted is to provide discipline (or structure, rules, consistency, whatever you want to call it) so he knows what's expected of him.

Finally, the third most important thing you can do for your dog in all the world is to LOVE the heck out of him! Third above all else! That's a pretty high ranking status. Affection is important. It's third only to structure and movement.

All of these things are important. But too many people give NO exercise and NO discipline, but instead, flood the animal with human affection and the dog is out of balance. DUH!

Thanks for listening...

FourIsCompany

Now back to my point. When Cesar Millan says "Exercise, discipline and affection, in that order" He doesn't NOT mean that you wake up in the morning and before you love your dog, you must take him out to walk for 4 hours, then apply a little discipline, whether they need it or not, THEN, if there's time in the day, you may show a reserved amount of affection.

It's not about doing things on a timeline. "In that order" means order of importance. The most important offer you can make to your dog to provide a well-rounded and balanced existence is exercise. If you're going to do one thing only for your dog, make it exercise.

I agree.  When CM is talkig to the US population that advise is best.  But when it is applied to the home situation, reality says the order of importance changes over time.  The total human relationship with the dog is defined as Exercise, discipline, and affection at the beginning but as the dog ages, the importance changes because the dog's needs change.

Ixas_girl

 There seems to be a bounty on the head of Cesar Millan. Silly me, I forget who issued it, and what's in the purse for the victor. A little help?

Something that's come up in this thread that interests me is the idea that defensiveness against Millan-bashing is in itself divisive.

Obviously Millan-bashing won't stop, so what are better ways to field misrepresentations and attacks of the man and his methods? 

Ixas_girl

Obviously Millan-bashing won't stop, so what are better ways to field misrepresentations and attacks of the man and his methods? 

Don't. That's my advice. He can field attacks against himself and his methods just fine. Misrepresentations can be corrected with facts and non-emotional statements.

It's attacks against ME and MY methods that I am in a position to defend. AND it's not really necessary that I defend how I raise my dogs. They're MY DOGS. I don't really care what people think of how I raise my dogs. They are spectacular dogs, well-balanced and adored. They're smart, well-behaved, confident, loving dogs and no one has the final say over them but me. They are my defense!

The only issues I've had are B'asia herding Mia and Jaia at the vet and with a combination of methods, we're coming along by leaps and bounds! But I use some of Cesar's methods in both situations and our family is living proof that he's a brilliant man and knows a LOT about the nature of the canine. He doesn't need my defense.
 

Ixas_girl

[Obviously Millan-bashing won't stop, so what are better ways to field misrepresentations and attacks of the man and his methods? 

Do you consider my last post as Milan-bashing because I choose to modify his teachings to suit my home.  Do you consider me as a Milan-basher because I say his approach in the Shiney Floor episode is wrong or his approach in the Insane Great Dane episode is wrong.  In both of those episodes I might happen to know more about the breed than CM and if given the opportunity to converse with him, he would learn from me or vice versa.

DPU

When CM is talkig to the US population that advise is best.

Yes, because that's exactly what they need to hear. People aren't exercising their dogs and then wonder why Fido ate our last 3 couches! LOL

DPU

Exercise, discipline, and affection at the beginning but as the dog ages, the importance changes because the dog's needs change.

Actually, I'm not too sure about that - for me anyway. My girls (Cara and Mia) are 5.5 years old and they still need SOME exercise. Not as MUCH as they used to. But if I were to pick one of the three, exercise would still be the first thing I would offer. Because for one thing, the exercise they get is ALSO part of the structure and ALSO part of affection (because they love it SO much!) Cara is happiest when she's running about in the field. She's much rather have a W-A-L-K than to get a big love session from anyone...

But again, that's how my dogs are. I am fully willing to agree that not all dogs need the same things in the same amounts.  

DPU

Do you consider my last post as Milan-bashing because ...

No, of course not! Discussion, disagreement, and critique are not bashing, they are part of healthy discussion.

Attacking, exaggerating, misrepresenting, name calling, emotionalizing and obsessive and relentless pursuit is bashing.

Who gets to decide what is or is not attacking?  Surely the only person entitled to say "that person is attacking Cesar Milan" is Cesar himself if he feels attacked.  And he's not here, as far as we know. 

Benedict

Who gets to decide what is or is not attacking?  Surely the only person entitled to say "that person is attacking Cesar Milan" is Cesar himself if he feels attacked.  And he's not here, as far as we know. 

Good point!  I stated CM was wrong and therefore attacking his specific dog knowledge credibility.  The opposing side has to say I am wrong.  My experience here and with those episodes, I put forth consideration for breed specific elements such as age, size, temperament, etc, and got no response.  For +R training I say I feel duped because training representatives did not disclose there is -R or -P, whatever in the training.  It is so obvious that a dog's avoidance of displeasure is part of +R training.  And then again, I get silence.  Where's the healthy discussion?  I believe my inquiries were viewed as an attack and serving the "other" side. 

I take the time to understand training methods and then critique from within.  But that doesn't work either. 

DPU

The opposing side has to say I am wrong.

Who is "the opposing side"? Am I the opposing side? Because I am a huge CM fan, so I get lumped in as "ther opposing side"? Did I say you were wrong? If so, where?

DPU

and got no response.

The fact that you get no response, means nothing. It's neither agreement nor disagreement.

DPU

I believe my inquiries were viewed as an attack and serving the "other" side. 

Would you repeat or highlight these inquiries so that someone may address them? I'd be happy to if I can. Of if you want a response from someone in particular, ask them. Otherwise, I don't even know what inquiries you're talking about. Sorry.  

DPU

But that doesn't work either. 

Doesn't work to do what?  

Again, what good does it do to see our discussions as "our side" and "the opposing side"? This is not a game. There is no necessity to have loyalty to the home team. All the methods mesh together to form a big wonderful pool from which each of us can draw exactly what we need for our own situation. Sure there are some hard-core supporters of various methods, but almost every one of us cross the lines of the different methods when working with our own dogs, don't we?