Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

espencer

Mmmm pinning a fearful dog? when was that? 

Not that he's done it recently, but one or two seasons back, he had a leash-reactive pit bull who was going beserk in the presence of one his rock solid dogs. He grabbed by the scruff, pushed the dog down on her side, and held a pin until she quit struggling. No reward, as Dgriego would have given one for good behavior. Staying in the presence of the trigger, which is flooding, rather than moving to a range of non-reactivity, as Dgriego would have done. And he had to do it more than once.

Not that he does it, now. Enough people may have voice an opinion about that and we won't see it televised anymore.

He also scruffed and pinned, to my recollection, the Korean Jindo, a rather feral dog at the time.

Then there was the dog that was fearful of getting a bath. He got the dog in the bath and gave it a treat, calling that +R. He turned on the water, the dog freaked out, he grabbed by the scruff hard enough to immobilize the head and went about his usual method.

I'm not complaining or judging, just relaying what I remember.

ron2

espencer

Mmmm pinning a fearful dog? when was that? 

 

Not that he's done it recently, but one or two seasons back, he had a leash-reactive pit bull who was going beserk in the presence of one his rock solid dogs. He grabbed by the scruff, pushed the dog down on her side, and held a pin until she quit struggling. No reward, as Dgriego would have given one for good behavior. Staying in the presence of the trigger, which is flooding, rather than moving to a range of non-reactivity, as Dgriego would have done. And he had to do it more than once.

Not that he does it, now. Enough people may have voice an opinion about that and we won't see it televised anymore.

He also scruffed and pinned, to my recollection, the Korean Jindo, a rather feral dog at the time.

Then there was the dog that was fearful of getting a bath. He got the dog in the bath and gave it a treat, calling that +R. He turned on the water, the dog freaked out, he grabbed by the scruff hard enough to immobilize the head and went about his usual method.

I'm not complaining or judging, just relaying what I remember.

 

Oh we had a really extensive talk about those 2 on the "alpha roll" thread, the last thing those dogs had was fear, they wanted to kill somebody, he actually did it again on last friday's episode with a new dog, totally needed

About the one in the tub i can talk about because i dont remember that moment 

  One is dog parks; I would be very uncomfortable rolling my dog in the presence of strange dogs that he might be showing aggression to. Especially true if his aggression was related to fear. I watched and episode yesterday where a Doberman cross was rolled in a dog park. Cesar had said that the aggression the dog was displaying was somewhat fearful in the beginning although he changed that to dominant as the episode continued. Now in all fairness to Cesar I have never been in a situation that required this. Since I have gone out of my way from day one to control and teach my dogs proper behavior I do not feel I would ever need to perform this technique. If working with a rescue I would again make sure I had addressed these issues at home before every taking the dog to the dog park, so although the process makes me uncomfortable, I am not condemning it. 

It actually really bothers me when I see people force their dogs into submissive postures around other strange dogs. It is not for us, the humans, the people who don't speak Dog, to decide who is and is not at what point in any hierarchy or dyad or social group, it just screws things up for the dogs, confuses the heck out of them and can make an already fearful dog even more of a basket case. Yet I see people do this all the time. They sort of have somehow decided their dog is too dominant (though I see an awful lot of fearful behavior from these so-called "dominant" dogs) and must be forced to submit to the other dogs, which places them in an unnatural, vulnerable position. A dog who is dominant among other dogs isn't even a bad thing. A truly dominant commanding personality in a dog is just a dog who knows what's what and who's who and doesn't need to do anything to prove him or herself and does not feel the need to use threat gestures to gauge the responses of the other dogs in the area, and who knows how to signal non-threat gestures effectively to the other dogs who are less confident. Sounds like a nice, stable dog to me.

Moderator here just peeking in...

let's do stay on topic...specific aspects of the methods etc of the man named in the thread, are great choices for new threads...tho I think this one was done recently. Just a small general request. Thanks all!

houndlove

It actually really bothers me when I see people force their dogs into submissive postures around other strange dogs. It is not for us, the humans, the people who don't speak Dog, to decide who is and is not at what point in any hierarchy or dyad or social group, it just screws things up for the dogs, confuses the heck out of them and can make an already fearful dog even more of a basket case. Yet I see people do this all the time. They sort of have somehow decided their dog is too dominant (though I see an awful lot of fearful behavior from these so-called "dominant" dogs) and must be forced to submit to the other dogs, which places them in an unnatural, vulnerable position. A dog who is dominant among other dogs isn't even a bad thing. A truly dominant commanding personality in a dog is just a dog who knows what's what and who's who and doesn't need to do anything to prove him or herself and does not feel the need to use threat gestures to gauge the responses of the other dogs in the area, and who knows how to signal non-threat gestures effectively to the other dogs who are less confident. Sounds like a nice, stable dog to me.

I have to say that I agree with this.  I would also add that it has always bothered me that CM places so much importance on dominance, when at least 80% of the time, aggression has more to do with fear or anxiety than with dominance.   I always wondered why he could sense a wimpy owner so quickly, but failed to recognize stress and fear in the dogs, or at least mishandled it in terms of the long term behavioral health of the dog.  JMHO 

houndlove

It is not for us, the humans, the people who don't speak Dog, to decide who is and is not at what point in any hierarchy or dyad or social group, it just screws things up for the dogs, confuses the heck out of them and can make an already fearful dog even more of a basket case.

I actually think that is up to us to decide that, actually if we take that position we will be helping the dog to have an structured life, dogs were not born knowing so if we dont teach them they have high chances to take the wrong decisions, if somebody does not know anything about dogs then maybe the outcome you are talking about can happen

Who knows better about being a dog than a dog does? How can a human possibly think they can make better decisions for their dog about being a dog and talking to dogs than the dog itself can? Our job is just to make sure they have plenty of opportunities to learn from dogs how best to deal with dogs. I don't see how I could teach my dog to be balanced and socially adept better than a bunch of dogs could. Thanks to a lot of socialisation and me keeping my nose out of dog business, my dog makes exceptional decisions, much better decisions than I tend to make about dogs. Big surprise there, seeing as she can talk dog and I can't.

Once again, rabbits base their hierarchy on who's been a rabbit the longest. I have come to consider rabbits to be wise creatures, and their disdain sure keeps me humble! 

Well, after 19 pages, I'll venture back.  First off, I will admit that I've avoided this thread for a couple reasons......my notifications are very iffy and I'm too busy to go looking most of the time, and, in my own experience, Behavior is not a great place to be.  However, I'm impressed with this thread.

I will be the first to admit that I don't "get" all the hoopla about CM.  I don't get NG and with dialup,  I really can't watch the clips.  When I have watched some at work, well, I haven't been impressed.  In the past I have asked honest questions in an effort to understand, and have usually been ridden out of Behavior on a rail.  This is not to say, however, that I have stopped reading, or stopped trying to learn.  I still don't "get" CM.

Yes, he has done a great job of raising awareness that Hello?  All dogs need training so that they never, ever GET  to the red zone stage.  I have said many times and I'll say again, if owners did their job in the first place, there would be no need for CM or others like him.  Owners need to accept responsibility for the life they've brought into their home and stop being so danged lazy.

From what I have read, including his books, and what little I've actually seen, I still don't understand the why with a normal family dog.  And based on that, what the heck can I take away?

I have a pretty steady string of fosters in and out of my home.  Some are pretty wild, undertrained and undersocialized.  They take a lot of effort to manage.  But, with my own, or with fosters, I've never felt the need to poke, roll, pin or otherwise be physical with a dog.  Do I use touch?  Darn straight, but it's the flat of my palm on the neck or withers generally.  I absolutely hate choke chains, and I'm ashamed of myself that I ever resorted to a prong with Thor......I've learned to teach loose leash walking and heel with a long line and it's ever so much more effective FOR ME.  Most of the fosters I get are german shepherds so we aren't talking about small dogs. 

I've never seen the value of flooding.  I know how I would feel if someone decided to "help" me overcome my fear of snakes by forcing exposure, and while a dog doesn't function in the same mental capacity as a person, I can't see inflicting that kind of horrible fear on any creature.  Fear is fear and I'm sure not going to make it worse.  It's so much easier and safer to slowly desensitize an animal to whatever s/he fears in the first place, and to teach them that there isn't really anything to be afraid of.  And, actually, that's actually worked a little with me.....while I'm still not eager to go into the garage where I know snakes WERE living and may still BE living, I can do it if I absolutely need to.  I still put shoes on to go outside, but I will walk in the yard again. 

While I don't "hate" CM, I admit to finding some of his followers a bit fanatical, and I see no need for a link for each and every problem that's posted regardless of what it is.  Nor do I take "any opportunity to seek him out and discredit him", but perhaps what I've just said will help others to understand why I am not a fan.  And, I will say that SOME CM supporters have made a sincere effort to try and help me to understand what I did not, just to be completely fair.  On the whole though, it often seems that CM supporters are so darned defensive that they don't want to answer an  honest question.  That's just my honest opinion and I surely don't want to cause problems in what has been a really NICE thread.

I don't think that I'm being closed minded, although perhaps I am.

glenmar

In the past I have asked honest questions in an effort to understand, and have usually been ridden out of Behavior on a rail. 

Me too.  It is pretty good here at the moment though.  I have learned my lesson.... I do have to be more careful how I phrase questions and criticisms of CM (or any technique).  Everyone, whether they like CM or not, is being a lot more diplomatic now and we are, I think, meeting in the middle and finding we are not so different after all.... and it is a much nicer environment to ask those questions in.

glenmar

Well, after 19 pages, I'll venture back. 

Hey! Good to see you! 

glenmar

I still don't understand the why with a normal family dog. And based on that, what the heck can I take away?

I would say that if what you have seen (And I definitely don't think you're being close-minded) doesn't resonate with you, then there's no need for you to try to take away anything. What I have taken away from CM and what I've learned from his shows and books cannot possibly be summed up in a post. But I can say the most important thing I have learned from him is how vital the projection of my energy is; how "sensitive" dogs are to how I'm feeling at the moment. (And I don't mean sensitive as easily hurt, I mean it is as perceptive.) Maybe a lot of people simply don't need to be taught things like this. But some of us clearly do.

I believe it's all really a matter of opinion, different personalities, different contexts about life... And I can't help but continue to bring the analogy of religion into it. Most times, a Protestant just doesn't "get" Catholicism. A Muslim just doesn't "get" Wiccan. And nobody "gets" an Atheist! LOL Certain aspects of particular religions appeal to some, but not to others. There's no need to TRY to fit one into the other or try to get everyone to understand and respect all the others. I'm a big CM fan, but poking, rolling and pinning dogs is such a small portion of what he does (and many CM fans reject those particular techniques), yet that's what everyone remembers and associates to him. It's like that's all they see. The controversial techniques. But he's much more than those things and even though I have been known to poke my dogs occasionally (and never painfully), I don't roll or pin them... Still CM is my biggest influence in dealing with my dogs.

So, my unsolicited advice is don't try to force yourself to "get" him. He's really just another guy who works with dogs. 

glenmar

I've never seen the value of flooding.

Just to address this for a moment... I don't have any interest in you placing value on flooding, I just want to point out that if you had snakes in the garage, that's a real problem, not an imagined one (like wicked shiny floors). Exposing a dog to a real problem (like slippery ice) would be cruelty. But you can be reasoned with. You have a logical mind and can "logic-it-out" that - there's no snake there and if there is, I can deal with it - whereas a dog isn't able (as far as we know) to be reasoned with. No matter how many times we tell him the floor isn't really slippery, he's not going to "get" it until he experiences it for himself. That, as I see it, is the value of flooding. To me.

glenmar

I admit to finding some of his followers a bit fanatical

So do I. There are some people of any "ilk" who are a bit fanatical. There are fanatical clicker trainers, animal activists and show dog snobs. I tend to hang out at a place not quite so far to the extreme, but still have strong preferences.

glenmar

I see no need for a link for each and every problem that's posted regardless of what it is.

Everyone gives their input according to what they think is best. If there were videos on every method and technique that had helped people, I think we'd see a lot more links to videos. There's no NEED for a link for every problem, but it's easier than writing it all out. One reason we're here is to give opinions to people having problems and then they choose how to handle their situation based on our input (or they choose something else altogether) There may be no need, but is it harmful?

glenmar

On the whole though, it often seems that CM supporters are so darned defensive that they don't want to answer an  honest question. 

I'm really sorry that this has been your experience. If there's anything you're interested in that I can answer for you, let me know. And if you're not interested, that's ok, too. I just hope you don't use the more fanatical (proverbial squeaky wheels) to judge the bulk of CM supporters, because most of us are quite reasonable. We DON'T try to push him as the new savior of dogdom at every opportunity. You probably couldn't pick us out in a crowd except for hearing the occasional "tssst"...

FourIsCompany

I'm a big CM fan, but poking, rolling and pinning dogs is such a small portion of what he does (and many CM fans reject those particular techniques), yet that's what everyone remembers and associates to him. It's like that's all they see. The controversial techniques. But he's much more than those things...

Carla, I've read his book and only watched a handful of his shows, but I understand what you're saying - he uses many techniques other than those that most people who are not CM fans disagree with.  Where the problem lies, IMHO, is that all those other techniques are being done by most, if not all, good trainers, and have been for a long time before he came along. So what makes him different IS those techniques, the flooding, the rolling, the pinning. Everything else has been borrowed from other trainers, who may be quite well known and respected in their field, but they don't happen to be a friend of Oprah and have their own TV show, so they are not as well known to the masses.

On one episode I saw there was a Vizsla in Los Angeles that was terrified of the sights and sounds of city life. CM rigged the leash so that it held his tail up in a confident position rather than tucked between his legs. Great idea - change his body posture from that of a scared dog to a confident dog, and the attitude will follow. And it did! But there was an article on Suzanne Clothier's website written years ago about doing the exact same thing. I don't know if she came up with the idea or borrowed it from someone else, but it was certainly around and being used before CM did it, just like all his other non-controversial techniques.

Every time I've seen a discussion about how great CM is, (and I'm not bashing him, I think the fact that he stresses the importance of training dogs in a format that reaches the masses is a very good thing), every single reason cited as to WHY he's so wonderful can be said about Ian Dunbar, or Suzanne Clothier, or Jean Donaldson, or Pat Miller, or Patricia McConnell, or Sheila Booth, or any of dozens of other great trainers whose names are not familiar to people who don't understand dogs aren't born well behaved and must be taught. I think that's why people don't "get it".
 

Cassidys Mom

Where the problem lies, IMHO, is that all those other techniques are being done by most, if not all, good trainers, and have been for a long time before he came along.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is claiming that he came up with these things, though. And check this out:

Who invented clicker training?

Clicker training may be one of the most recent concepts in dog training but its origins are anything but new, being almost 70 years old. However, it wasn't until the late 1980's that marine biologist, Karen Pryor and dog trainer, Gary Wilkes (together with other collegues) introduced clicker training in the USA.

Source

But no one is upset that Karen Pryor herself didn't invent the thing. Why is it a problem that CM uses the same techniques that other people use? They got many of "their" ideas from other people, too.   

Cassidys Mom

So what makes him different IS those techniques, the flooding, the rolling, the pinning. Everything else has been borrowed from other trainers

Firstly, he would disagree that he's a dog trainer. He doesn't do obedience or give commands. Secondly, there's much more than those techniques that make him different from dog trainers, in my opinion. Such as the simple, straightforward way he puts forth information. The way he talks about the importance of energy and reading the dog. And even if he got absolutely NOTHING from his lifetime of living with, studying and being devoted to the ways of dogs, he DOES have the forum to reach millions of people. Why shouldn't he do it?

Cassidys Mom

But there was an article on Suzanne Clothier's website written years ago about doing the exact same thing.

CM doesn't claim to be the owner or inventor of such things. Did Ms. Clothier claim she invented it? I doubt it. Did she credit the original source of her idea? I doubt it. Why aren't people upset with her for using this technique or  consider it a problem?  Is it possible that this idea occurred to Cesar and he thought he was introducing it to the world? (I actually doubt he thinks he invented it.)

I made up Jaia's name but later discovered that it was the name of a famous Belly Dancer and a French Music Company. So I wasn't the first to use it, but I DID make it up.

Cassidys Mom

Every time I've seen a discussion about how great CM is [...] every single reason cited as to WHY he's so wonderful can be said about Ian Dunbar, or Suzanne Clothier, or Jean Donaldson, or Pat Miller, or Patricia McConnell, or Sheila Booth, or any of dozens of other great trainers whose names are not familiar to people who don't understand dogs aren't born well behaved and must be taught.

And ARE these people sited as wonderful? Yes. Do they have a following, sell books and videos and charge people for lessons? Yes! Do they do great things for the dog community? YES! Did each of them invent their entire way of dealing with dogs? No.

Is it a problem that CM seems to be the most popular dog "psychologist" because he has a forum to reach the masses? yes... Why? Before CM came along, who was in the "top spot"? Were they ridiculed simply because they reached more people than others? I don't think so. I don't get that.

So, I understand that people don't "get" CM because I don't "get" why he is treated so differently than anyone else who might have at one time been in his position.

FourIsCompany

Firstly, he would disagree that he's a dog trainer

Well see...this kinda thing...speaking for him...when he's not here? I dunno...

Just for the record, I've never seen anyone claim that Karen Pryor invented clicker training. She was one of the first popularize the method and recommend it's use for regular pet-owners, but no one has ever said she invented it. If you read her books, she'll tell you exactly how the method was developed and who did so and when she became aware of it and why. The value of her work is that it took something that had previously been the domain of psychologists and early marine mammal trainers and made it easy to understand and practice for the layperson.