Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

FourIsCompany: Firstly, he would disagree that he's a dog trainer

rwbeagles: Well see...this kinda thing...speaking for him...when he's not here? I dunno...

C.Millan, "Be The Pack Leader", page 44.......... "Many animal professionals who say they disagree with (what they perceive to be) my techniques follow the "rewards-onlu" trend of dog training - TRAINING being the key word. Remember, I DON'T TRAIN DOGS. True, that was my original ambition when I came to America, but I quickly came to see that my own special skills could be put to muh better use. It appeared to me that nation's dogs needed much more to make their lives complete beyond the ability to sit, stay, heel, roll over, and fetch the newspaper. What I do is REHABILITATION........."

You're right, Cesar's book (and website!) clearly state that he is not a dog trainer.  He doesn't teach dogs to sit, stay, come, and fetch a ball.  That is dog training.  He rehabilitates dogs who lack balance and leadership through the use of dog psychology.  Dog training and dog psychology are two totally different issues.

Ahh so it's chocolate and peanut butter then. Both wonderful in their own right for most in one of their varieties...deathly allergy for a few...and indifferent for others. Personally I find chocolate and peanut butter are best TOGETHER in the right amount. Eat too much of one or the other and you're bound to burn out...but in moderation and mixed?...perfect.

Thanks for the offer Carla.  I might just take you up on that the next time I have questions.

I honestly am very hands on with my dogs and with the fosters.  But, gosh, I just think it's flat out rude to poke ANYONE.  Can you explain the function of that?  I'm not a very big gal, and my voice sounds pretty squeaky to me, but gosh darn it, my dogs obey without poking...the fosters get it sooner or later......might take longer, but that's why they are with me.  And go figure that.....I am NOT a trainer or anything else expert, but they just keep sending me dogs who need a bit of work on this that or the other thing......sigh.  Yet, they all leave responding to voice commands and hand signals.

Maybe I'll just never "get it" since I've never been a physical kind of person.  Hugs and love, yeah, but physical dominance has never been my thing....and maybe that's because I'm not so big and tough as I like to *think* that I am!

Ahh so it's chocolate and peanut butter then. Both wonderful in their own right for most in one of their varieties...deathly allergy for a few...and indifferent for others. Personally I find chocolate and peanut butter are best TOGETHER in the right amount. Eat too much of one or the other and you're bound to burn out...but in moderation and mixed?...perfect.

lostcoyote

well, ya know what Peter Paul says about this...... sometimes ya feel like a nut.... sometimes ya don't.... peter paul almond joy's got nuts.... peter paul mound's don't.

LOL!

And the underlaying, and persistent question is: If I don't feel like a nut, and I want my Mounds ... and I want to talk about how much I enjoy my Mounds ... why in the world would anyone come along and tell me to stop enjoying my Mounds? And tell me that I must have "issues" or deficiencies which leads me to enjoy and discuss my Mounds ... or criticize my Mounds for not being the first ever chocolate bar on the market?  Especially, when on a chocolate bar discussion forum?

Mmm, chocolate ... now I have the munchies!  

lostcoyote

FourIsCompany: Firstly, he would disagree that he's a dog trainer

rwbeagles: Well see...this kinda thing...speaking for him...when he's not here? I dunno...

It's right in his book - printed in black and white. He states that he is not a dog trainer. He also state that he is a dog rehabilitator (and a people trainer) over and over agaon on his TV show.

C.Millan, "Be The Pack Leader", page 44.......... "Many animal professionals who say they disagree with (what they perceive to be) my techniques follow the "rewards-onlu" trend of dog training - TRAINING being the key word. Remember, I DON'T TRAIN DOGS. True, that was my original ambition when I came to America, but I quickly came to see that my own special skills could be put to muh better use. It appeared to me that nation's dogs needed much more to make their lives complete beyond the ability to sit, stay, heel, roll over, and fetch the newspaper. What I do is REHABILITATION........."

True, he says he is not a trainer.  I have heard him say so myself.  This an area where he and I disgaree.  If a trainer were to come along and teach this dog to not pull their owner by using R+ to positively teach loose lead walking, no one would dispute that they had TRAINED the dog to behave appropriately and that "trainer" is therefore not an inaccurate label for them.  Same if a trainer turned up on your doorstep and trained your dog not to chase your chickens - or even LOOK at them by using a clicker rewarding the dog every time he displayed appropraite behaviour in the presence of chickens.  CM might use finger pokes, "tssst", collar pops, rolling or pinning to train a dog not to pull or chase chickens, but he is still training them.  I don't understand why, just because he is using P+, not R+, that it magically becomes "not training".  Can someone explain that to me? 

For YEARS, almst all dog training consisted of "correcting" the dog for the wrong behaviour and praising and petting for the right behaviour.  That's still training.  Just because its old fashioned and not the kindest method doesnt stop it from being training.  While CM may not be as harsh as some of the trainers from years back, how is waht he does "not training"?  I can't help but suspect that saying it's "rehabilitation" just sounds far better than saying its "correction training", with the current trend among other trainers and the public in general leaning towards a more positive approach.  That may not be his intention... but whether it is or not, this insistence that he is not a trainer sort of feels "dishonest" to me. 

houndlove

Just for the record, I've never seen anyone claim that Karen Pryor invented clicker training.

That's exactly my point. Have you seen anyone claim that Cesar Millan invented any of the techniques he uses? I haven't.  

rwbeagles

Eat too much of one or the other and you're bound to burn out...but in moderation and mixed?...perfect.

Exactly! (And I don't know if anyone saw in another thread that I ordered a clicker book! LOL ) But some people don't like peanut butter and some (like me) can't eat chocolate. So, for some, it's a combo, for others, it's one or the other. No problems.

Here's a 3-part video that tells more about the man, if anyone is interested.

Up Close with the "Dog Whisperer", Cesar Millan 
Part 2
Part 3

glenmar

But, gosh, I just think it's flat out rude to poke ANYONE.  Can you explain the function of that?

There are several reasons, but here's a vid where Cesar does it to prevent a dog (who has killed other animals)  from focusing on prey. But "being rude" is a human judgment. And yes, if humans did it to each other, it's considered rude. But smelling another person's butt would probably be considered rude, too.

Video 

glenmar

I am NOT a trainer or anything else expert

One thing I'm realizing is that some things come WAY more naturally to some than to others. You probably have a "gift" in dealing with dogs a certain way. Many aren't that fortunate and need other tools to get the same response you do with your voice.

Chuffy

I don't understand why, just because he is using P+, not R+, that it magically becomes "not training".  Can someone explain that to me? 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people referring to him as a trainer. I'm saying HE doesn't think of or refer to himself in those terms. I don't think of him as a "trainer" either, but more of a "holistic" behaviorist because he treats the psychology of the whole family. But that's just my opinion. I think of training as giving a command and having the dog comply. There's a bit of overlap, IMO.

Mmm, chocolate ... now I have the munchies!

glenmar

But, gosh, I just think it's flat out rude to poke ANYONE.  Can you explain the function of that?  I'm not a very big gal, and my voice sounds pretty squeaky to me, but gosh darn it, my dogs obey without poking...

 The poke is not done very forcefully. I do on occasion use the poke on my Hektor. He is pretty much a brute of a dog. With my Vizsla whenever he gets a cactus thorn in his foot or his legs he will come to me to have it removed. It bothers him and he cannot focus with them sticking in him. Hektor on the other hand comes back from most runs with cactus sticking out all over his legs (he is white so they are hard to see) and even had them hanging from his testicles a couple of times. They do not seem to bother him at all unless they get stuck between his toes on the bottom portion of his feet.

 Gunnar would not respond well to a poke, he does not need pokes and never has. Hektor on the other hand needs them sometimes to get his focus back. I can read him pretty well and if he is pushing his way in when he is not suppose to (he will push guests or the kids with his body) I have on occasion poked him while making the tsssssss sound. It works well for him. If he is starting to fixate on another dog in a negative manner I will use the poke and the sound. It always works well and it certainly doesn’t scare him. It also is not painful it is just a more forceful touch that makes him take his focus off of something and back on me. If I used a more gentle touch during these times when he is fixated on something he would not even notice.

 I never use it as a training correction. In other words if I am working on the sit and he fails to sit I would never poke him but would instead go back and make sure we understand the command or perhaps touch his bottom to remind him of what “sit” means. It is only used (by me) to redirect his attention.

But, gosh, I just think it's flat out rude to poke ANYONE. Can you explain the function of that?

There are several reasons, but here's a vid where Cesar does it to prevent a dog (who has killed other animals) from focusing on prey. But "being rude" is a human judgment. And yes, if humans did it to each other, it's considered rude. But smelling another person's butt would probably be considered rude, too.

Chuffy

True, he says he is not a trainer.  I have heard him say so myself.  This an area where he and I disgaree. 

 I have to agree with you on this one Chuffy. I also think he is a dog trainer. But I also think that most "animal behaviorists" are also dog trainers. Anyone that teaches a dog how to behave is in some fashion a "dog trainer". Call yourself a psychologist or a behaviorist it does not change the fact that you teach dogs.

 Now mind you I know that many behaviorists put a lot more time into their credentials and I give them kudo’s for all their extra schooling. But I have also met a few down to earth un educated (in school) types that have a pretty awesome knowledge of how dogs and/or horses work.

 But all in all they are all dog trainers to some extent. I wonder why he does not want to be known as a dog trainer?