Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

Benedict

Sorry Carla, did I misunderstand something? 

No, I was just joshin' with ya!   That's something we do here in the states!

Should Methods Vary with Dog's "Personality" and/or Breed...

Benedict

All of those would be great discussions that I'd participate in...Go for it and start them, Carla. :) 

 I would participate as well and I would like to say that for me this thread has been great. I feel as if I better understand everyone and that we have bridged some of the gaps where we have come to a point where we can all like each other and appreciate our shared love for dogs, and understand the reasoning behind one anothers arguments. Almost to the point (and I hesitate to write this) where they are no longer arguments but actual debates and discussions.

dgriego - I am *thrilled* that you feel that way and I'm glad you shared it.  I think this thread has been truly productive and I am hoping against hope that it will have ramifications beyond just this thread - that the good we have all done here can spread and be learned from and put to use in other discussions.  

I'll be around and participating in this section, the new threads that have been suggested and many more beyond that.  I hope that each of the members that have made valuable contributions will too.   

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to an approach using physical touch, corrections and body blocks (to name the most often disliked ones) as the method by which Hektor is trained (although not exclusively) and was not saying that you or anyone else was referring to it and it alone as the "hammer". IMO any method can be the "hammer" if you always use the exact same method even if it is not working well.

dgriego

 

 

Chuffy

I don't think corvus is suggesting she would use the same technique for every dog that came into her house.  I am getting the impression that her experiences ahve led her away from using a particular technique becuase she is no longer comfortable using it.  It's been said many times that the method has to suit the dog AND the person... both have to be comfortable

 

 I agree and did not mean to suggest that Corvus was suggesting this. And I 100% agree that the method used must suit the person and the dog. If you or someone else owned Hektor it is entirely possible that you might choose another form of which you are more accustomed or comfortable and be successful with that method. In so doing in the long run both could be considered correct. On the other hand if I trained Gunnar using all the same methods used on Hektor, because I am comfortable with them and because they worked on Hektor, and Gunnar did not respond well (which he would not) and I continued them because they are what I am most comfortable with then I would be using a hammer on Gunnar.

Great exmple, dgriego. That's exactly what I'm saying. I've said many times that my training ethic is something that is largely about my personality. The personality of the dog also needs to be considered, of course. What I'd like to do has a heavy impact on my training method, but I'm only human and sometimes I get angry and frustrated and deviate from my plans. Thankfully, dogs are extaordinarily forgiving. Wild animals, not so much.  There's no middle ground for something that would either bolt or take a chunk out of you if you gave the chance! That's what has changed my habits in the past few years, and it's pretty incidental to dog training, really. 

dgriego

This seems to imply that many are using a form of training because it seems to be working (they are getting some results) but that other methods if tried might be more successful

I was initially subjective. Corvus' analogy applied directly to me in my case. And I am an average guy. And knowing my predilection for +R, scientific method, and the use of the clicker, and my stance in other debates, it is assumed that I am saying the same thing is happening with others (signified by "many";). That was almost putting words in my mouth but at least you washed your hands first.

That is, while I was agreeing with Corvus, it was taken to mean that I am disagreeing with others. And, FWIW, I feed Shadow Nutro, the bane of this forum, considered by "many" to be a slight step above Ol Roy. He does quite well on it, considering his metabolism. And it's not the first time I have been at odds with others.

I also may disagree with the characterization of constant use of +R and clickers as a hammer, though for debating sake it has come to mean a "one-tool trainer." The initial intent, I think, was that the hammer symbolized force applied. As in, when all you do is apply force, every problem looks like it needs force applied. And I stipulate that several people here use a combo, though it's not always apparent in debate.

Then, again, how many people here scruff and pin? Collar pop? Swing their foot at the dog's hind quarters, which has no analog in the dog-dog world? Does anyone here use their fingers to "bite" the dog on the neck? And if so, why would these "rehab" techniques be used for obedience training if they are primarily used by a person who "rehabilitates" and does not train?

But congrats on making the quote of the week.

ron2

dgriego

This seems to imply that many are using a form of training because it seems to be working (they are getting some results) but that other methods if tried might be more successful

 

I was initially subjective. Corvus' analogy applied directly to me in my case. And I am an average guy. And knowing my predilection for +R, scientific method, and the use of the clicker, and my stance in other debates, it is assumed that I am saying the same thing is happening with others (signified by "many";). That was almost putting words in my mouth but at least you washed your hands first.

That is, while I was agreeing with Corvus, it was taken to mean that I am disagreeing with others. And, FWIW, I feed Shadow Nutro, the bane of this forum, considered by "many" to be a slight step above Ol Roy. He does quite well on it, considering his metabolism. And it's not the first time I have been at odds with others.

I also may disagree with the characterization of constant use of +R and clickers as a hammer, though for debating sake it has come to mean a "one-tool trainer." The initial intent, I think, was that the hammer symbolized force applied. As in, when all you do is apply force, every problem looks like it needs force applied. And I stipulate that several people here use a combo, though it's not always apparent in debate.

Then, again, how many people here scruff and pin? Collar pop? Swing their foot at the dog's hind quarters, which has no analog in the dog-dog world? Does anyone here use their fingers to "bite" the dog on the neck? And if so, why would these "rehab" techniques be used for obedience training if they are primarily used by a person who "rehabilitates" and does not train?

But congrats on making the quote of the week.

Ron just to let you know I am the worlds worst at managing my quotes. Just ask Four! When I posted my response it was really to state that the general statement made by yourself and by Corvus could be interpeted (and has been at other times on this forum) that although "my" method works another might be "better" but I have not yet found it or refuse to see it.

 My post was not meant to come across as negative to either you or to Corvus and I did not take yours or Corvus's as being negative to my approach. Sorry if my post was taken in that manner. The conversation thus far has been great by everyone. I have enjoyed it.

You ask about some methods and whether we use them:

collar pop : sort of although what I use most often tends to be a tug on the leash as apposed to a collar pop and would be considered very sissy by those training to say Khoeler or that other guy who hangs dogs.

scruff and pin : no, but I might with Hektor should he ever make an attempt to murder Gunnar. has not happens thus far, and I am working hard to never have it happen, but if it did I might scruff and pin

swing their foot : on occaision I have used my body to redirect attention or to get the dog away from whatever he is fixated on. I can tell you that his method was completly useless today when Hektor met the 20 foot orange, bendy, flexi balloon man.

finger bite : I have and do on occaison "poke" Hektor, and it works, again this is to redirect his attention off whatever he is fixated on and back to me. I do not consider it a "bite" and I do not really think he sees it as a bite. But it works sometimes for him. The "poke" is not hard, does not hurt him (LOL I could hit him with a brick up side the head and I don't think it would hurt him) but is useful for getting his attention.

 What is interesting is that I have never used any of these for Gunnar, the worst he ever gets is a "finger point" and that is sufficient for him. And collar pops are rarely if ever needed for Gunnar, a simple tug on the leash is sufficient.

dgriego

You ask about some methods and whether we use them:

collar pop : sort of although what I use most often tends to be a tug on the leash as apposed to a collar pop and would be considered very sissy by those training to say Khoeler or that other guy who hangs dogs.

scruff and pin : no, but I might with Hektor should he ever make an attempt to murder Gunnar. has not happens thus far, and I am working hard to never have it happen, but if it did I might scruff and pin

swing their foot : on occaision I have used my body to redirect attention or to get the dog away from whatever he is fixated on. I can tell you that his method was completly useless today when Hektor met the 20 foot orange, bendy, flexi balloon man.

finger bite : I have and do on occaison "poke" Hektor, and it works, again this is to redirect his attention off whatever he is fixated on and back to me. I do not consider it a "bite" and I do not really think he sees it as a bite. But it works sometimes for him. The "poke" is not hard, does not hurt him (LOL I could hit him with a brick up side the head and I don't think it would hurt him) but is useful for getting his attention.

First, no offense taken. I was hoping that the smileys would ease any misconceptions and that I could understand how you might think I was implying that, based on my "track record," so to speak.

As for what I quoted of your recent post, you are sissy compared to CM. I mean that in a nice way. He has used finger bites, collar pops that are stronger than just a tug. I've tugged on Shadow while he is in harness, but not always. And I strive to do it less, which is not an implication that you are not trying hard enough or whatever. It might be nigh on to molding. The end goal for me is to have him motivated to listen without molding. CM has used his outside foot to kick the dog, though not hard enough to send the dog reeling or toppling over. And he has scruffed, pushed down, and pinned a dog for being leash-reactive. And keeps the dog in the scene without reward. AKA, flooding. Your poke, done light enough, might be seen as attention, which redirects his attention, even though initially, it might be seen as a punishment because it was a physical stimulus brought in but your intent was to get his attention, which may have the side-effect of the stopping the behavior, as opposed to a karate jab to stop something.

Your method is about touch as a cue, as one might do with a deaf dog, at least, in my opinion. Though, there is a marker way of training a deaf dog with flashes of light. Just don't do it near an airport. Oh, I'm too funny. Make me stop.

ron2

As for what I quoted of your recent post, you are sissy compared to CM. I mean that in a nice way. He has used finger bites, collar pops that are stronger than just a tug. I've tugged on Shadow while he is in harness, but not always. And I strive to do it less, which is not an implication that you are not trying hard enough or whatever. It might be nigh on to molding. The end goal for me is to have him motivated to listen without molding. CM has used his outside foot to kick the dog, though not hard enough to send the dog reeling or toppling over. And he has scruffed, pushed down, and pinned a dog for being leash-reactive. And keeps the dog in the scene without reward. AKA, flooding. Your poke, done light enough, might be seen as attention, which redirects his attention, even though initially, it might be seen as a punishment because it was a physical stimulus brought in but your intent was to get his attention, which may have the side-effect of the stopping the behavior, as opposed to a karate jab to stop something

  As I have mentioned I try very hard to make all learning a positive experience for my dogs, but as for CM I must confess and say that I do not find his methods offensive or to harsh in all cases, I would even say that if they ever are it is in few cases.

His use of his legs is mostly his actual leg and not his foot interacting with the dog and I have not seen him do this to excess or where I thought he was hurting a dog

The scruffing and pinning is one I am uncertain on. I have seen it where I did not like it, and I have seen it where I did. For instance when he takes a fearful dog and pins it down in front of another dog then that sort of bothers me, but when he takes a more boistorous confident dog and does the same it does not bother me. Also the case on the dog that was a stray resuced by the guy and his wife that would not let them touch him while laying down, I think it was a jinjo, was tramatic but I felt it was effective.

And his finger bites do not bother me at all. If needed I will perform them on Hektor to the extent that I get his attention. Like I said before Hektor is unlike any dog I have ever owned or assisted and I think at times I really could hit him with a brick and he would not even notice it.

 Most of the time CM uses the techniques on the more assertive dogs, and he seems to be growing in that direction.

 Anyway I just wanted to clarify that I might be a sissy in comparision, but I do not oppose what he does and would use it myself if the situation warranted it.

hey moderators!! Moderators!!!! Ron called me a sissy!!!!!!  LOL Just kidding

ron2

The initial intent, I think, was that the hammer symbolized force applied.

With regards to my postings, thats correct   Veering back towards the topic title, an issue I have with CM is I dosagree (not always) which dogs he uses "force" (shall we say, a "hammer";) on. 

dgriego

hey moderators!! Moderators!!!! Ron called me a sissy!!!!!! 

Even though you can laugh about it, which is great, I broke a rule, one of my own rules about not name-calling. I should have re-phrased and said that your methods are not as strong as CM's. I do apologize, even if it brought you a giggle.

dgriego

think it was a jinjo

A Korean Jindo. There is another way to rehab that does not involve allowing the dog to helicopter itself. But it takes a while and won't fit in what was a 30 minute show that is edited for just the highlights of the segment, as well as commercial ads from sponsors. Notice that I do not say that CM was hanging the dog. He did get the dog down and held him down until he tired out. But this doesn't actually rehab. Rehab still has to involve reassigning meaning to whatever was bothering the dog, if possible. If  I remember correctly, the dog had been loose for some time, almost feral. So, imho, a way should have been researched in how to tame a feral animal. But it would appear, according to the follow-up that it was a success, in some way.

ron2

Even though you can laugh about it, which is great, I broke a rule, one of my own rules about not name-calling. I should have re-phrased and said that your methods are not as strong as CM's. I do apologize, even if it brought you a giggle.

 You do know that I meant that in fun I hope? I was making perhaps a not so good attempt to bring humor into the conversation. I took no offense and in fact am pleased to be considered a sissy under the criteria discussed.

dgriego

You do know that I meant that in fun I hope?

I know you meant fun. And the mods and admin may see that, too. And while we've had fun with it, I broke a rule, technically, though I meant it (the name) as a compliment and to show my understanding that you actually have a soft touch.

dgriego

For instance when he takes a fearful dog and pins it down in front of another dog then that sort of bothers me

Mmmm pinning a fearful dog? when was that?   

espencer

dgriego

For instance when he takes a fearful dog and pins it down in front of another dog then that sort of bothers me

 

Mmmm pinning a fearful dog? when was that?   

I would actually be happy to discuss this but the CM links have gone!  Where did they go and why???