Opinions please: I can't get this dog's attention. Help?

It was at my training center. The book is brand new but it is really taking the positive training world by storm. There were probably 45 people at the seminar, many of them other professional trainers coming to learn about these techniques. I actually hooked up with a trainer there who I have met  before who teaches a "Fiesty Fido" class for reactive dogs, and she says she is definitely going to be modifying some of the things she's doing in that class based on the Control Unleashed methods.

I hope I have not missed it in any of your posts, but what does the vet say about this and did the vet give you any referrals.  It all sounds like a lot more than getting the dog's attention is the issue.  If it is medical I would not engage the dog in any type of training or behavior modification techniques.

DPU

I hope I have not missed it in any of your posts,

I don't think you missed anything, my dilemma was really how to deal with the situation.  The behavior modification is for me, not my dog.    I work with everything I know and when I run out of options, I reach out.

The suggestions have lead me to deal with it by waiting it out --  that's what I'm trying at the moment.  I'm going on walks like we're just chillin'; no schedule, no issues, just a nice outdoor-time.   We just won't step off a curb and move on out until he's in tune with me.  And I'm looking at books that were suggested.

There is no MRI, no testing...  If it looks like a medical problem to be dealt with in the future, we'll address it that way.  Sometimes time heals all anyway.  I'm trying to give him a good dog life. 

Thanks for asking.

I think you might want to re-consider the medical consult. If it's a petit mal seizure condition that's going on, no training in the world is going to work but a few pills might. His behavior sounds really abnormal to me; I'm familiar with dogs "going deaf" when they fixate on a scent or smell, but what you describe doesn't sound right. Can you take a pic of him fixating and post it?

mudpuppy

Can you take a pic of him fixating and post it?

lol, any picture I post would look like him fixating. 

I can almost promise you this IS MEDICAL.  Does this dog 'obsess' in any other way?  Is there any air-licking, patterns of behavior like craning his head one way or another before or during 'down' times?  The fact that this dog was in an accident kind of sets it up for something neural. 

This does NOT mean he's untrainable or that you just "give him a good life" -- it may mean that he may respond to acupuncture or some herbals that can actually begin to help repair the damage.

I've got a little peke we took a year and a half ago -- much of the time she just plain was NOT on the planet.  some -air-licking but I honestly never picked up on the biggest signals that my holistic vet picked up in a heartbeat!! 

http://www.tcvm.com -- if you look on the left hand side there is a locator that will help you find someone trained in acupuncture and these herbals.  This is STRONG medicine - and it's designed to heal, not just "maintain" (altho sometimes that is where you wind up, but man I never dreamed we'd get the kind of results out of Kee we're getting).

Be specific with the vet before you get there and likely they can set up something that will 'trigger' one of these situations (since even a picture will do it) -- and that can help them diagnose it.  There are a LOT of good TCVM vets in California and, in fact, if you are anywhere near Alameda, Cheryl Schwartz is there and she is AWESOME ("Four Paws, Five Directions" - and she also teaches for the Chi Institute).

Please try it.  There may definitely be a place for the training but if you address the health issue FIRST you may stop spinning your wheels and get something truly accomplished.

Ok, having a sighthound can be alot like you said.  If you let it.  Clear your mind about everything training wise you know.  Throw it out the window and start over.  Get a book called "Playtraining your Dog" by Patricia Burnham.  It's available through Amazon and probably a dozen other sites.

Walks are supposed to be fun.  Super fun for both you and the dog.  But right now you're competing with too many fuzzy furries and that will always distract a sighthound.  Always

 Start out with your training inside.  Train "look at me."  If he's food motivated, have a piece of food in your hand and move your hand close to your eye, or even point at your eye....the second he looks you in the eye...use a bridge or reward word and reward him.  After he gets the idea (which will be about 30 seconds, run him through the regular sit, down, stand or whatever behaviors he knows.  Do the "look at me" exercises again.  (no more than 2 minutes at a time.) And run through the other behaviors one more time.  No more than 5-7 minutes should be spent on this in a day.

 Keep a leash on him for a few minutes inside...flat collar or a martingale collar only...whenever you have 2 minutes, practice leading him from one room to the other.  You want him to be looking at you, so bounce, jump, act excited every single time he looks at you.  Put him in a "sit" and then begin playing a game.  You want him to stay interested in performing the behaviors so that he can play the game afterwards.

And now the kicker...you need to have an "ON" word for him when it's okay to hunt.  It might be something like "go ahead" or "find 'em" but you need to turn him "ON" so that you can also place an "OFF" command on him.  (Leave it, that's enough etc.)  Letting him hunt or be self directed during parts of the walk is SUPER important to a sighthound.  They need to feel like they can make their own decisions...which tree to sniff, which squirrel needs to be taught a lesson in humility, which bush is theirs.  But a lot of trainers don't give them that freedom and the dogs end up frustrated.  These dogs have an intrinsic need to solve problems, make decisions and chase things.  Because you're owned by one of them, you have to decide when to give him this opportunity.

And I cannot stress this enough....HAND SIGNALS.  Teach hand signals for left, right, back, forwards.  If you teach the hand signals with the "on" command and point in him the direction of the prey....BOOM, you just went up like 10 steps in the heirarchy.  All of a sudden it's "I need to listen to my human, he/she knows where the fuzzies are."

 
I know I've written a book here, but I've barely touched upon the surface of "walking your sighthound and keeping your sanity."  It can be done, you just have to be creative and you need to teach the basics first without distractions.
 

See, I knew Ed would be along with some helpful advice.  Even if I did have to chase him down like the Anubisdog he is. 

agilebasenji

See, I knew Ed would be along with some helpful advice.  Even if I did have to chase him down like the Anubisdog he is. 

thanks!  (I think)

I wanted to add something.  There have been studies performed, and I'll try to research and come up with titles of the studies.  The study showed that regular interaction of a cat with a human when there was no prey about, stimulated several parts of the brain.  (There was more activity in particular regions.)  But when there was prey about and the cat was focused on the prey, those same areas of the brain did not register the sound, or activities of the human. (There was almost no activity in those regions of the brain.)

 Sure, ok.  Cats are not dogs.  Dogs are not cats.  The brain of a predator though, works in the same basic way. The predator has to focus in on the prey and rule out distractions.  This increases odds of a kill.  Predators kill to eat and eat to survive.  Thus eliminating distraction and focusing on prey is an aid to survival.  The two breeds you mention, Basenji and Ibizan are both breeds with over 1,000 years of documented history.  Their brains are still wired, for the most part, as a predator type brain.

The main point of this is that as an owner you need to be proactive about keeping their attention, but allowing them to hunt when YOU allow them to.  And you must give them that opportunity. 
 

Xerxes

Clear your mind about everything training wise you know.  Throw it out the window and start over. 

Done!   Now, you just have to re-train me. 

Xerxes

Train "look at me." 

Started this morning.  He got it in 4.2 seconds, but I think he mostly is focusing on my nose and only occasionally actually looks into my eyes.  I figured it was close enough.

Xerxes

And I cannot stress this enough....HAND SIGNALS. 

I already do!  I always use hand signals (or body language) with words - it comes in handy later in life.  I will now try pointing him toward the "furries" in the park, but his eyesight beats mine any hour of the day.

Xerxes

you need to have an "ON" word for him when it's okay to hunt

I have to think about this a bit, because now I need to know how to be reasonable about all that prey out there.

I never correct him for craning his neck and "looking" at anything he wants to on the walk, but he is not allowed to lunge.  My logic is that the distractions will always exist, but he still has to follow my rules and not leave.  I thought that if I just rushed/pushed past the objects, he will not learn to tolerate them.  I have seen too many dogs that go out of control when you walk them by a cat and they can't take it.  So I don't pretend that there is nothing there, I acknowledge it.  Most of the time I ask him to keep walking, but sometimes he is practically walking backwards so he doesn't lose sight of his intended victim.  I'm sure the "Look At Me" training will help this out.

He knows the address and zip code of every cat in this neighborhood and looks he forward to a view of each and every one of them every day.  So every morning after "squirrel park", we walk by "cat house" and where I let him sit on the sidewalk and just stare at those specific cats for a few minutes, and then ask him to walk on if he hasn't started to look around already.  He is attentive, but if he gets shakey I don't let him stay.  So, is this too much to ask of him, or am I really getting a dog that understands he can look but not touch?  When we leave, he does not obsess about what we left behind - unless a cat starts to follow us and I have to change direction real fast and create a diversion.

I am not sure about how to really let him "hunt".  This is a city, and I do not have property for him to run loose unless he goes to dog park, which is no hunt.  I walk him to a park every morning on the leash where I let him stalk squirrels on the end of my leash - once I get there he is free to lead us (or not) in any direction he wants for 20-30 minutes, but he is not set free and I will not let him drag me. When squirrels are exhausted, we compose ourselves and leave.  But he is never "free" to hunt. I could put him on a 25 foot line, if you think that would make a difference.

I'm re-reading everything I've written and I'm starting to sound like a nut case, but I'm not going to try to patch it up -- I love this dog, he's a happy dog, and we can work this out once I approach it all correctly. 

Xerxes

I know I've written a book here

Thanks.  Keep writing.

agilebasenji

See, I knew Ed would be along with some helpful advice.  Even if I did have to chase him down like the Anubisdog he is. 

Xerxes

The two breeds you mention, Basenji and Ibizan are both breeds with over 1,000 years of documented history.  Their brains are still wired, for the most part, as a predator type brain.

Should I assume then, that the behavior I described in my original post is normal for these breeds and just needs to be dealt with that in mind?

cat0

Should I assume then, that the behavior I described in my original post is normal for these breeds and just needs to be dealt with that in mind?

Let's just say it's not unusual for that behavior to exist in those particular breeds.  

Now when I say "hunt" I don't mean let him off lead.  If you have any wooded areas nearby, and only once he learns to zone in on you (even if for a second or two) you can start with getting him on a longer lead and allowing him to venture a few feet off the trail to sniff for furries.

Another "hunting" game is something you can do inside the house.  It's fun, it's easy and your dog will love it.  get a few treats, put the dog in another room, or into a down, stay.  Place the treats here and there, almost hiding them.  Then give him the command "find them." (Or another appropriate command to you.)  You might have to walk him from treat to treat at first.  But after the second or third time, he'll understand he's supposed to LOOK for the treats.  When I say "look" I mean look with eyes and nose.  Both breeds you described have better than average scenting ability (especially for sighthounds.)  

As for allowing him to sit and stare at the cats...I'm not a fan of that.  If it were me, and upon occasion it has been, I would keep walking.  Brace the lead in my arms and just keep walking.  If the lead tightens and he turns his head, he'll see your back to him.  You're moving on.  As soon as he closes the distance...reward like crazy.  My on lead recall command is to turn my back to my dog.  And as soon as he gets to my side, I have a little party.  I also talk to him constantly during the walks.  The closer he is to me, the happier my voice is and the more often I talk, the further away from me he gets, my tone goes lower and with less volume.  

 The trick with getting your hound to want to be with you is two things...trust and fun.  He's got to trust your judgement, and you've got to make it fun (from his perspective) to be around.  Yes, this means sometimes when you're sick, tired, have a headache or just plain would rather be somewhere else-you're out jumping up and down and throwing a party for a dog that finally "left it" after you told him to.

That's the other behavior you need to teach-the Leave it.  Best behavior in the world, next to "drop."

Yikes, I've done it again.  I'll let you digest this for now and come back in a bit.
 

I have a stuffed toy that is a blue bird that chips.  Bluebird is on a rope.  I can simulate hunting by having my puppy chase bird-on a-rope.  Adults will sometimes chase bird-on-a-rope, but Zpuppy loves this game.  You can also put something on a lunge whip and have your dog chase that.  Run around making prey-like sounds.  If the neighbors don't think you're strange, you're doing it wrong.  You also may want to look around for a lure coursing club and go to a fun match that is open to all dogs.  Personally, I would not let your dog hunt.  Many basenjis loose interest in lure coursing (IOW chasing non real game) after making a live kill.  It's also messy.  I know this first hand. 

Also, be careful not to accidently jerk your dog when he's on a long leash.  Given your dog's history, you may want to do this with a harness on.  If you're using a lunge whip or bird-on-a-rope, you have control where the "prey" is going and can do this in a fenced area.

Look for that Control Unleashed book.  I think that may help.

My update after a few short days:

1. Observation: I have been way too predictable.  In my effort to teach through repetition, my dog has been trying to tell me how to work it.  He's not so dumb, I'm too slow for him.  He just doesn't have the time to stop, look me in the eye and say "I got it, already".  Variety is the new approach.

2. We don't stop to look at cats any more, and he doesn't mind at all.  In fact, he thinks the cat house is no big deal.  But I am not stupid enough to think introductions are going to happen.

3. I'm walking with a flat collar now, and carrying the pinch collar in pocket.  When I really need his attention we try a little game for diversion.  If I really need it, I can switch collars.  I did have one walk where I had to quit and go home, rather than have it turn into a battle.   In general, things are much better. 

4. "Look at me":  We're not doing it right.  I'm not doing it right.  "Look at me" translates into "Guess where the piece of bacon is hiding".   He knows for sure it's NOT on my face.  If I hold it in my teeth, is that cheating?

5. I still need to work out some more ways for him to play.  I live in a city.  My yard is no larger than a few rooms.  We play some ball and he races around a little course he worked out and then through the house, but the only place for him to really move is at dog park, and his focus there is not on me.

6. Recall: I never thought about teaching a dog to come to you by turning away, but it certainly works a lot better than facing him and giving him a command.  Better approach, at least for this dog. 

I wish I could back up 6 months, but life's a constant adjustment anyway.  THANKS for a new direction.