Opinions please: I can't get this dog's attention. Help?

cat0

In 6 months I've gone from collar to harness to pinch collar.  I have tried snapping the leash, yelling, holding his head and trying to force his gaze to me, picking him up and turning him around and calling him....

I bet agilebasenjis and Xerxes will have some great advice, but the one thing that stood out to me is it sounds like excessive force, too much trying to correct the dog into obeying and not enough of giving the dog reasons to obey in the first place.  From what I hear, both of these breeds are extremely smart but can also be extremely independent and aloof, doing what they please when they please.  I don't think there's anything at all wrong with this dog, it just means that with breed in mind, YOU have to work twice as hard to give him reasons to come to you and heel.  Games, toys, treats, praise, petting, tone of voice.....make a list of a few things that really motivate your dog and use those, not corrective devices, as your training aids.  Also, try to "capture" moments when he is behaving and doing what you want (even if he doesn't realize it), praise and reward, so that he thinks everything was HIS idea in the first place.  It sounds as though you are very frustrated (rightfully so), but it's important not to let that emotion factor into your training.  The dog is probably ignoring you because right now you = yelling, grabbing his head, painful leash corrections, etc.  You want to = treats, games, praise, rewards of free time and space.

 Have you ever tried clicker training or play training (or both--these methods are not mutually exclusive)?

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This sounds like a dog that is totally shut down (or some sort of strange siezure?).  When stressed, there are actually 3 things an animal will do - fight, flight or freeze.  I fostered a puppy mill basenji once and she would freeze when really stressed (vet visit, first time toe nails were done, trucks driving by etc).  There was nothing behind her eyes at that time.  Very sad.  Otherwise she was scared, stressed, but eventually learned to play.  If this is the case with your new pup, you are not going to be able to train while the dog is in this state.  The dog won't respond to praise, treats or corrections.

Otherwise, if the dog is fixated on prey, you won't be able to train then either.  I am convinced that when my brindlewonderkid (a dog with over 20 titles to his name in conformation, agility, coursing, rally, therapy) cannot hear me when I call his name and he's chasing a rabbit.  His ears don't even flicker in my direction.  Having said that, we can always work towards that perfect recall.  I suggest Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall" either the book or the dvd depending on which is easier for you to learn from.  She has Afghans, so she's a fellow sighthound person.  You need to work slowly up to increasing distractions.  Start with something she knows and distractions that are far, far away.  You need her to be successful about 90% of the time.  Otherwise you have to lower your criteria in some way. 

When my basenjis (one of which is a 9month old puppy) fixates, I wait them out.  Freeze.  Don't talk, that's just going to be backgroud noise anyway.  As soon as the dog looks at me, I'd click and treat.  (Look into clicker training!!!!!)  This happens a lot right before I let them loose in the dog yard.  They are straining at the leash, perhaps they just saw a bunny, or want to go read that pee-mail.  I wait.  No nagging, no tugging.  They are not let loose until they look at me.  Somedays I need a sit, sometimes just a look. 

The other thing I worry about, is some brain damage from the car.  If this is the case, it can be hard to diagnose, but using force is not the answer.  Also don't force the dog to look at you.  This is threatening and invasive to a canine.  You can clicker train the dog to look at you.  I never did this with my brindlewonderkid in our early training and when I tried to do this with him a year or two ago (he's almost 11 and still competing in agility and does the therapy visits), it really shut him down.  He's a soft dog and that was a bit much for him.  He will make eye contact when I'm sitting on the sofa and it's time for him to be petted (according to him), but doing this in a training situation was too much.  A younger dog, I might work through it, but decided not to bother with him.  Dogs, especially sighthounds, have amazing peripheral vision.  If he's beside you, he can see you, he can hear you.  Unless he's locked on that bunny or squirrel.

If you have any specific questions beyond this, please let me know.  I'm happy to help.  And I'd love to see a pic of your pup.  Otherwise, look for Nelson's book/dvd and look into clicker training.  Dogwise.com has a wide range of really good books. 

Hi Liesje -

Well, my post sounds like I've hung him from the highest tree.  Please don't think I am dragging this dog down the street every day like this.  I just re-read the quote and it sounds like I'm yelling at him.  Not - I have yelled to make a noise loud enough to get his attention (geez, I should read it better before I send it).  Snapping the leash makes a noise, also no reaction.  And turning his head to look at me... well, if I could just get him to look at me.

I am not trying to force him to obey a command, I am trying to get his attention.  He is not purposely ignoring me.  He's on another planet.  (Doesn't happen every day, though.)  Today I tried bacon.  He  likes bacon, but I could have wrapped him in it and it wouldn't have mattered.  Am I frustrated?  You bet.  And trying darn sure that it doesn't become anger.    I'm with this dog almost 24 hours a day.  He is a wonderful dog.  Loves his cuddles, his toys, people (the postman!), all dogs.  But I can't get through the zone-outs.   You offer very sound advice.  This is beyond what I've experienced with any dogs.    I'll check out the sources that you listed.  Thanks!

Hi Agilebasenji -

I've just read your post 4 times.  You've described my dog.  I am so relieved.

I don't know that it is necessarily stress that kicks him into his frozen state.  He once stopped in the middle of playing with us and another dog to fixate on the Goodyear blimp going overhead.  He eventually sat down but stared at the sky long after it had disappeared over the trees, still holding his tennis ball in his mouth.  We just watched, amazed.

I don't think it's a prey thing.   When he sights a squirrel on-leash in the park, he will stalk it with me in tow, and still has the presence of mind to not step off the curb if it runs into the street (he's not allowed to unless I go first).  He'll be intent, but he's still on Earth and I can talk to him.

I have wondered if it could be neurological.  He was a pretty broken up puppy and I believe they didn't think he would live.   Regarding fight/flight/freeze, he has never been aggressive, and only runs to chase.

Thanks for the "gaze" advice.  My theory was to get him to acknowledge me at that moment.  He actually makes eye contact with me often (he's a clown and likes to toss his toys and beds in the air in front of me as an attention-getter).

I'm not really interested in training while he's in this state, but I can't be 4 blocks from home and not know how to deal with it.  I'd appreciate your suggestions:

• I can deal with the total freezes during the walks;  I just "camp out". People see him frozen in his tracks and stop to talk.  I've met a lot of nice people this way.  But sometimes he doesn't give it up, and I have to take him by the harness and pretty much pull him down the sidewalk until he walks along again.   Good or not?
• The hard part is when he goes into "drive" and I can't break him out of it.  His gaze is locked straight ahead, his head and ears are up, and he's practically rigid like he's locked onto something, but he isn't really.  It's just intense forward gear that can go for as far as I can go, regardless of direction.  That's where I have the problem because I can't stop him and I can't divert him.  I can get a grip and hold him there while he leans into it (I always have a harness on him) but I can't walk with him because he'll just drag me. He weighs 40 pounds, a lot for me to try to pick up and carry.  Again, physically dragging him in this state? 
• The other thing that's been happening for several weeks is distress when we walk by certain houses with dogs.  He has started to make noises and get wildly hyper.  I've interpreted it as fear, but I don't know why because it's the same houses with the same dogs, but I have started crossing the street before I get to those houses.  He goes to dog park, but does not socialize the way he used to.   I was told that he got in a scuffle with a dog there while i was out of town last spring, but everyone said it was nothing.  I wonder.  Any comment?

Again, thanks for the insight.  I'm off to check out the books now.  I'll post a couple of pics of him as soon as I figure out how.

I haven't tried clicker training, but that's what I'll be looking at next since it is positive.  I'm not sure what you specifically mean by "play training". 

If you're open to it, you may want to try a holistic vet.  Not being there to see it, it is hard for me to figure out if this is normal sighthound stuff or something more.  What happens if you stand between him and what he's staring at to break the stare?  Does the stare look like an intent prey stare or an out of it zombie type thing?

Another good book/dvd is Turid Rugaas "Calming Signals".  Get both, it's not terribly expensive.  But it should help you predict some stresses in you pup (and all dogs).  There's really nothing else like that book on the market.  It will also help with the walking by other dogs when he's getting hyper.  My favorite clicker book is Clicker Training for Obedience, but I don't think that's the best fit for you right now.  Perhaps someone else has a suggestion for a nice general clicker book?  Tricks or fun stuff.

As far as him dragging you, a head halter may help.  Look for the Premier brand, not the other brand.  Some dogs really, really hate them, but if yours doesn't mind it too much, I think it can help with the prey-stare.  Gently redirect him and wait it out.  It is very, very important when using a head halter, that the head is never jerked, so if your dog tends to run to the end of the leash, don't get one.  Especially considering that your dog has already been broken up badly by a car.  I have seen a harness type thing that the leash attaches in front.  The people I know have had really, really good things to say about them, but I don't know the brand.   Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

I hope Ed, aka Xerses, will be along with his take on this soon.  He has Pharoah hounds.  And if no one else suggests a good fun clicker book, ask spiritdogs.  Otherwise, here's some good clicker websites to get you started:

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/index.html 

http://www.clickertraining.com/

http://www.clickerlessons.com/

Good basic clicker training book: "Clicking With Your Dog" by Peggy Tillman

Better clicker book: "Clicker Training for Obedience"  by Morgan Spector - this one is way more detailed.

There is no way to train a dog that is "zoned out" while in that frame of mind - - much better to do as agilebasenji suggests and capture good behavior at times when he can concentrate on you, then lengthen the time he can do it.  With the independent breeds, I have the best luck teaching attention in small sessions, first in pretty sterile environment (I really am the most interesting thing in the room then LOL) and build slowly.  I also up the ante - the reward might be a Cheerio when we are in the kitchen with the blinds drawn.  But, it might be liverwurst if we are out where he can see a squirrel.
 
 

  I have a good friend who has Afghans hounds, many call them stupid and I can say that they are incorrect in that assumption. They are not attentive like most dogs, they are aloof and "very different" (sorry just no word comes to mind to describe) almost like cats. But they are not stupid; in some ways they may even be smarter than your average dog. Maybe that is why they are so difficult to train. Trainability to me in not necessarily related to intelligence. In many cases it almost seems that for some dogs and some horses the more intelligent they are the more difficult it is to train them.

 Anyway I wish you the best and am interested in what other owners of these type breeds will say about your problem.

Best of luck.

I agree, I wish you could see him.  If I move into his line of sight, his head moves but not his eyes (does that make sense?).  There is no "I can't see what I was looking at so I will focus on something else".  I'll buy that, I guess.  Eventually, he'll come back around.  His forward drive to me is as frenzied as my old beagle's when she picked up a scent on a walk, but the direction is not important and I can see no focus.  He shakes and looks half insane.  It certainly isn't a joyful excitement, but I don't know what it should look like. It is NOT constant, and I can't walk him anywhere in this state.  Turning back for home makes no difference to his mannerism.

Try this for a picture of him (I'll never finish my profile).   http://community.dog.com/members/cat0/photos/picture485563.aspx  There is no telling his breed(s) for sure, basenji/ibizan has been the vet's guess.  Maybe someone can see something else.

His left shoulder was completely broken off above the joint and did not heal in line, so when he extends the leg his ligaments fall short, I believe.  Amputation was discussed if it became too painful, but he runs now and you wouldn't know he has a gait issue until he slows down.  So I have avoided the harnesses that cross over the chest and shoulder.  I thought about the Halti-type head collars but have visions of breaking his neck after seeing him in a pinch collar.  I've never used one.  If I thought I wouldn't hurt him, I would try it. 

I think I need to get into some books that have been suggested.

LOL liverwurst.  We're into bacon now. 

I can talk to him when he's working squirrels in the park on-leash, and he'll move off for me.  If he starts to haul too much I say "Stop pulling" and he does.  He'll stop at the curb and won't go after a squirrel into the street.  However, I could have wrapped him up in filet mignon the other day and had no impact on what he was doing.  For some reason that I can't see.

I'd just like to make it clear that I am not trying to train him as in obedience.  Just trying to get his attention.

Maybe I should try moulding a liverwurst into a squirrel-shape and put it on a stick...

dgriego, I agree that hounds are not stupid.  My beagle was incredibly selective about when she chose to acknowledge the world, but she was a smart cookie.  I've met Basenjis and mixes, but have not seen them in situations where their instinct takes over.   

He really IS trainable, and already knows a lot.  I'm not sure if "aloof" is the word I'd use with him though.  "Out to lunch".  Could be you're right, that he is just a tough breed.

Oh boy.  I should have named him "Challenger".

I just spent the day in a seminar given by Leslie McDevitt based on her new book Control Unleashed,and I definitely think you need to pick that book up.  Yes yes yes!!! Learn how to clicker train the basics first, then get this book because it is approaching these issues of lack of focus (and fearfulness for dogs who are fearful) in a whole new way and I was very very impressed. Her whole thing is giving the dog permission to look at and investigate the world around them, but in a structured, controlled, positive way. You aren't trying to squelch their desire to check things out, just giving them a framework for doing so in a way that includes focus on the handler. She's a clicker trainer, so the exercises she gives in her book incorporate that style of training, so learn a bit about clicker training and then get your hands on this book because I think it is exactly what you are looking for.

 And here is the book on Playtraining: http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB156  which I've heard can be especially helpful with sighthounds. It's using their natural drives to train, instead of trying to squelch them. Using their powers for good rather than for evil, as it were.
 

houndlove

I just spent the day in a seminar given by Leslie McDevitt based on her new book Control Unleashed,and I definitely think you need to pick that book up.  Yes yes yes!!! 
 

I've been doing my homework, lining up which books I'll pick up first.  This one in brand new -- where did you go to the seminar?