Resource Guarding - Need Help

Wow, Snownose, don't hold back there. Tell us how you really feel.

snownose

Cita, I achieve that by doing so right from the beginning when they are pups......or very young......my dogs know I control all things......I should be able to take things out my dogs mouth......in case of an emergency.....I make it a game.....I take the item almost playlike saying things like....let me see what you got, and then sticking it back in the dog's mouth......

You've essentially been teaching a "trade" without knowing it. You take the item and give it right back, thereby establishing with your dogs that pattern that taking something away is not necessarily a bad thing. By teaching a "trade," the dog learns that not only is taking something away a not-bad thing, it's actually a good thing, because something even better appears! So let's throw a party, we agree on something And I also try to avoid muzzling my dog at the vet's, and instead restrain him myself most of the time and he behaves much better. Yet I would consider myself a "positive trainer." I think polarizing views aren't necessarily helpful - we have a lot of common ground here if we only take the time to acknowledge it.

I "don't trust my dog enough to be able to take something." He's bitten people before, and under the right circumstances, he would probably do so again. I will still take things from him if he's in danger, and he hasn't bitten me (even when I pulled something out of the back of his throat)... yet. That doesn't mean there isn't still room to improve on his behavior, which is why I bought "Mine" and am working on "trade." Any time anyone reaches into a dog's mouth like that, no matter the dog or the person, there is always a risk. (How would you react if someone stuck their arm down your throat?)

I think the point of this thread is no to sit back and criticize people for what they should have done "from the beginning" but rather to share tips to improve behavior for the future. 

Here is what I think....something that has been common sense for many years......take it from my Dad, military man, retired, handling and raising GSDs all his life, didn't have fancy names like"Trade " , did fine with his dogs all of his life.......along come some people throwing a label on something, and boom.......we call it "trade", give me a break........the dogs I grew up with trusted my Dad totally, and he trusted them.......we both can remove items out of our dogs mouths without a problem, we can give it back or not......no big deal.....question is.....why do you feel uncomfortable taking a high value item out of your dogs mouths?

 Snownose, I don't need to take things from my dog(s) mouths.  Ever.  Using trade games from a young age, I taught an extremely strong "drop it."  I don't look at it in these terms, but what if I were to say to you: "Gee, I think its sad your dogs don't respect you enough to drop an item on command.  You have to grab it?  Wow."  This is what you are doing to other posters.

I *can* take things from Sasha's mouth if I need to, but I don't need to, and I don't want to need to.  Dogs don't grab things from other dogs' mouths.  That is an act of aggression.  Yes, it is ideal if a person can remove an item by force if need be, and not fear the consequences.  I don't fear physical retaliation were I to go grabbing things willy nilly, but I do fear the erosion that would occur in our relationship.

Mudpuppy is spot on, IMO.  Train a reliable "drop it" or trade.  This takes time, but it is sooo worth it.  Sasha is so willing to let go of things that a child can walk up, touch whatever wonderful thing  she's holding, and Sasha will instantly drop it and back off.  Sasha knows she will almost always get her item back, and often gets something better too.  At this point, letting go is automatic for her and not something she even has to think about.

RKimball,

How's it going with your dog?  

Dog_ma

Snownose, I don't need to take things from my dog(s) mouths.  Ever.  Using trade games from a young age, I taught an extremely strong "drop it."  I don't look at it in these terms, but what if I were to say to you: "Gee, I think its sad your dogs don't respect you enough to drop an item on command.  You have to grab it?  Wow."  This is what you are doing to other posters.

I *can* take things from Sasha's mouth if I need to, but I don't need to, and I don't want to need to.  Dogs don't grab things from other dogs' mouths.  That is an act of aggression.  Yes, it is ideal if a person can remove an item by force if need be, and not fear the consequences.  I don't fear physical retaliation were I to go grabbing things willy nilly, but I do fear the erosion that would occur in our relationship.

Mudpuppy is spot on, IMO.  Train a reliable "drop it" or trade.  This takes time, but it is sooo worth it.  Sasha is so willing to let go of things that a child can walk up, touch whatever wonderful thing  she's holding, and Sasha will instantly drop it and back off.  Sasha knows she will almost always get her item back, and often gets something better too.  At this point, letting go is automatic for her and not something she even has to think about.

 

Did I ever say my dogs wouldn't drop items, please, show me where I said that......

For that I use a marker noise, but, I can grab if I want.........and I totally disagree that dogs trying to steal items from another dog being a form of aggression.....one of my dogs is very opportunistic......

Posters, please be thoughtful that your posts are directed towards the OP's request for help.

Debates over handling styles and philosophies belong in the "Trainers, Philosophies and Methods" section.

Thank you, The Moderator.

Being the GIVER and NOT the TAKER is the most important lesson for anyone who owns a possessive dog.  Do not believe that you should be able to take anything from a dog’s mouth; it is not a true statement for any dog that DOES resource guard.  If you are lucky enough not to have to deal with this problem, then you are lucky.  What you need to learn is how to get your dog to relinquish his valuables to you or how to walk away from his valuables.  To teach him that they are not so valuable after all.

luvmyswissy.......yes, i have......remember, I also rescue

My oldest GSD( Luke passed away at almost 14) came to me at about one year of age......starving, skinny as a rail.......it took some time to get him over that, but, it can be done......I think my point is more that if one has a dog at a very young age like a puppy, it is most likely the handler's fault if resource guarding develops.......and at that point one must look at the training protocol of the dog.......

snownose

Dog_ma

Snownose, I don't need to take things from my dog(s) mouths.  Ever.  Using trade games from a young age, I taught an extremely strong "drop it."  I don't look at it in these terms, but what if I were to say to you: "Gee, I think its sad your dogs don't respect you enough to drop an item on command.  You have to grab it?  Wow."  This is what you are doing to other posters.

I *can* take things from Sasha's mouth if I need to, but I don't need to, and I don't want to need to.  Dogs don't grab things from other dogs' mouths.  That is an act of aggression.  Yes, it is ideal if a person can remove an item by force if need be, and not fear the consequences.  I don't fear physical retaliation were I to go grabbing things willy nilly, but I do fear the erosion that would occur in our relationship.

Mudpuppy is spot on, IMO.  Train a reliable "drop it" or trade.  This takes time, but it is sooo worth it.  Sasha is so willing to let go of things that a child can walk up, touch whatever wonderful thing  she's holding, and Sasha will instantly drop it and back off.  Sasha knows she will almost always get her item back, and often gets something better too.  At this point, letting go is automatic for her and not something she even has to think about.

 

 

Did I ever say my dogs wouldn't drop items, please, show me where I said that......

For that I use a marker noise, but, I can grab if I want.........and I totally disagree that dogs trying to steal items from another dog being a form of aggression.....one of my dogs is very opportunistic......

My point wasn't that you're a lousy dog owner with terrible dogs.  What I am trying to say is that we call one-up each other in some way or another, if that's how we want to interact.  I don't think that is a great approach to dealing with each other here.  As I said above, I don't look at the situation in terms of "tsk tsk, what a shame that snownose's dogs can't drop it."  That is the POV you are taking with other posters, though. 

luvmyswissy

  What I have learned is that training, leadership, trust and management are what stand tried and true to help a dog find the need to relax around their valuables.

Being the GIVER and NOT the TAKER is the most important lesson for anyone who owns a possessive dog.  Do not believe that you should be able to take anything from a dog’s mouth; it is not a true statement for any dog that DOES resource guard.  If you are lucky enough not to have to deal with this problem, then you are lucky.  What you need to learn is how to get your dog to relinquish his valuables to you or how to walk away from his valuables.  To teach him that they are not so valuable after all.

Bravo!

I had to laugh about the part where you wrote about the relationship eroding by grabbing something from your dog.....take a good look at what has happened to the OP, talk about the relationship eroding, we are talking about the dog biting the owner. Once that happens there is a serious relationship and trust problem. I say "Trade" hasn't worked in this situation, one can't run around with a treat all the time to trade......I don't know why it it is such a bad thing that an owner can grab something without fear of getting bitten......that can easily be taught a dog from puppyhood, we are talking molding an eleven week old puppy.....yikes.....imo, that is one of the problems when one let's a dog do ( as some people call it here) too much thinking and decision making......and in this situation the dog decided "No".

If a puppy is just testing his status with the gurading and you work at his problem using solid training methods like NILF, etc -  it could very well go away and never come back as you establish leadership, there is no disagreement there.  But if he is truely a resource guarding dog the reliablity factor is not so great.

luvmuswissy, do you think a puppy is born a resource guarder or it is a learned behavior?

The OP has more issues in addition to resource guarding, like nosing through the trash and counter surfing.......I am going to say that this was probably a learned behavior, once the dog has swiped an item and was offered a trade, it re-enforced the behavior, the dog won, no matter what.

snownose

I am going to say that this was probably a learned behavior, once the dog has swiped an item and was offered a trade, it re-enforced the behavior, the dog won, no matter what.

Teaching a "trade" is one of several ways to help reduce resource guarding behaviors. It does not and cannot "re-enforce" resource guarding - snownose, please do a little research before making statements like that. I truly don't think you're understanding what some people are suggesting when they talk about "teaching a 'trade'" - it's not a reward for taking something the dog wasn't supposed to, and it's not about the dog "winning." It's about the dog learning that relinquishing its valued items to humans is a good thing. And part of that process in variable reinforcement - it's not that *every* time the dog "trades" it gets something super, it's just that most of the time it does, so it keeps trying. There are many ways to work on something like resource guarding (or housebreaking, or any other kind of training) and slandering one method without providing any alternatives is simply not helpful.

I believe that some dogs are at birth more inclined to be resource guarders than others. Some learn to be guarders when food is scarce or competition is high, but some dogs are simply more "guardy" than others, like some dogs are more "drivey" than others.

Where the behavior came from is ultimately irrelevant - what's important is what to do about it. And this is the last time I'm opening my big yapper in this thread - if you want to hear more from me on the issue, PM me. Apologies to the OP for getting a bit off topic. 

Cita

it's not a reward for taking something the dog wasn't supposed to, and it's not about the dog "winning." It's about the dog learning that relinquishing its valued items to humans is a good thing. And part of that process in variable reinforcement - it's not that *every* time the dog "trades" it gets something super, it's just that most of the time it does, so it keeps trying.

....Huh......I could swear dogs develop crazy behaviors when each time they do something they are not suppose to some sort of reward, either brought on on by them or the environment rewards, that includes the handler, and what if the dog values the item more than a trade......I am going to say trade is probably the worst, what if you need to trade and don't have an item to trade with, which appears happened to the OP.....totally silly IMO, but a solid "Drop it" might do a better job, until the dog decides that particular day he doesn't want to.......oh, you want me to do research, research on what exactly, people who have written about this? I know these books exist, just like books of other training methods exist, which of these books is the gospel? I use a little common sense, brought on by own experience, be it mine or handed down by my Dad, other experienced folks , or certain things I have read.

Oh,yes, we should probably pm, cause I have loads of questions for ya