Alphas can do whatever they like

ORIGINAL: espencer

Hey dont get mad at me, i am not saying that you all have dogs that go from growling to fighting  [], if they dont do that is fine, i am talking about the cases i have seen with my friends dogs who have not any train at all

I never said that ALL the growling becomes into fighting 100% of the times, somebody can have 2 dominant dogs that will fight all the time for the higher position, none of them will back off because i have seen it, untill you show them that the human is the alpha and non of them will be higher than the other and that is when they calm down

You have seen that growling does not transform into fighting and I have seen that sometimes does, so depends on the experiences of everybody

So like i said, by personal experience i rather not to let the dogs growling, if you do and they dont fight then thats fine but i dont think some of the posters have the experience you have to have a pack that can growl without fighting sometimes

Spiritdogs: You dont want to know who's seminar i am going next month []

Oh, let me guess - Kathy Sdao? Brenda Aloff? [8D]


Xerxes, I have a pack of play group dogs that spend every Sunday afternoon wrestling.  And, my two herders wrestle (with each other and virtually no one else, although they do each have a favorite friend who is allowed the privilege - anyone else gets the "mean teeth" request for more personal space LOL).
Sounds like everyone could benefit from Karen London's seminar - "From the Playground to the Detention Hall".  All about play style, what's appropriate and what's not. 

Gee, espencer, that isn't where you're going is it??? []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Gee, espencer, that isn't where you're going is it??? []

 
Mmmmm let me see my ticket.......................................... nope thats not the one but i will check the other names that you said to see when they are coming to town []

I have always let Xerxes wrestle with other dogs.  He's got one gf at the park (Rottie mix) that absolutely beats the tar out of him.  Strangers come up and try to *shoo* them away from each other, but since I'm usually within 10 feet of him, I explain that they've been "killing" each other for the last 14 months and still haven't succeeded.
 
Fortunately for me, his play is not loud and he doesn't growl when he wrestles.  But other dogs do. 
 
I think it was a valid question because play can escalate in the drop of a hat to full on fighting.  I've seen it happen before and afterwards the two dogs were looking at each other like "hey, what just happened?"

My experience with true alpha dogs is limited - I have got a real wannabe though...  When Wesley interacts with most dogs, he can be snarky about toys or bones and he tends to try to put his paws on other dogs' backs and shoulders and put his head over the neck and shoulders (when trying to determine position).  When he is with a submissive dog, there is no problem, the dog submits, all is well.  With another status seeker, this can be a problem and I watch carefully, for bodies tensing up, because there could be a fight.  But - with a true alpha, there is no issue, because the alpha doesn't feel the need to tell Wesley, or anyone else that he or she is in charge most of the time, he or she just is. 
 
For example - there is a 5 year old, intact, male Rottie at our park.  I am usually very quick to remove Wesley from the park when any intact dogs are around because he doesn't like them - except this dog.  This dog is super alpha.  He arrives and everyone tries to get his attention.  He plays with who he wants for how log he wants and moves on.  He is NEVER snarly.  He is great with all the dogs.  Wesley will jump on him, try to hump him fly at him and generally be ridiculously annoying and the Rottie is fine with it.  Then, when the Rottie has had enough, he simply pushes Wes over and holds him down (Rottie sitting or standing and looking up, Wesley tucked under fully submiting).  I have never seen Wesley accept anything like this so willingly, and yet he does - because this dog just exudes alphaness - calmly, quietly, nicely and with absolute authority over all the other dogs!  That said, his person has absolute and unquestioned authority over him.  He does anything his person asks of him and is extremely submissive to people...

Is up to you to maintain the level to just body lenguage or let it go all the way to growling, but if you let your dogs growl it will be like playing russian rulette, some times it will be enough and some times will go all the way to a fight

As someone who has owned a dog that fights, I have to say that this has not been my experience. Growling, in my limited experience, tends to mean things that are almost the opposite of fighting... like playing or saying "I'm scared" or "back off"

OTOH, every genuine, scary, bloody dogfight I have ever witnessed didn't really include much growling at all, and wasn't preceeded by a big growly display.

ORIGINAL: espencer

I am number 1 and the rest is number 2 and thats it, all number 2 are equal

I'm certainly not going to tell you your way is wrong, but it doesn't go that way in our pack. We generally don't interfere with the doggy arguments unless they escalate to something that might result in someone getting hurt. This is how Pyry behaves, too. If the two girls have a scrap, he'll come and check it out, but he'll stay out of girl business unless it gets serious. I personally don't really have a problem with my dogs having arguments as long as they remain ritualised ones, and like Xerxes, I prefer to let them sort themselves out. As a result, we have a ladder-like hierarchy. I consider that natural because we haven't interfered with it.

As for growling, I'm actually happy to let my dog growl. She's very vocal and she'll growl long before she bares her teeth, and she bares her teeth long before she snaps, and she snaps long before she dives into a full-blown fight. Usually. I would prefer my dog to feel that she can express her dislike of something. If she feels free to growl, then I think the chances of her going to baring her teeth, even, are a lot lower. She  grumbles at me when I do things to her that she doesn't like, but she would never in a million years bare her teeth at me. Once she snapped at another dog and accidentally got my hand instead. She realised mid-snap that she had the wrong one, curbed her bite and turned into a puddle of meek submissiveness. I didn't even have the chance to react before she was crawling up to me in the most submissive posture I've ever seen her in. Penny's grumbles at people sound like growls and sometimes worry people, but I take them as empty complaints and have never been rudely awakened from that interpretation regardless of how grumbly she might get. I think it's kinda pointless to suppress growls in dogs. It is, like Glenda said, an early warning system. I wouldn't want to take that early warning system away from an animal that can potentially do a lot of damage.

Glenda, I still wouldn't say Pyry was a bully. Like I've said before, for the most part, he doesn't care what anyone does. He wouldn't even sort out the other dogs if they're doing something they're not meant to like yours do. Penny used to do that kind of thing, and she really was a bully. For all I know, Pyry turned on Jill purely because she growled at him. Like we've been discussing, growling is an early warning, and Pyry probably took it as a challenge, not appreciating that Jill didn't want to play. Jill is a 2 year old kelpie cross, and quite frankly, her being too tired to play is unprecedented. It was beyond anyone's experience. I'm convinced that Pyry didn't know Jill was too tired, and that's why he took exception to her growling. I think most likely, he didn't know and didn't care. In his little mind it went "I want to run up the hill, Jill, run up the hill so I can chase you." And he was so surprised and shocked when she growled at him that he reacted by administering discipline. That in itself is a tough one for Pyry, because although he's the top dog, he's smaller than Jill. He weighs less and has short legs, so it's not a simple matter of pressing her down like bigger dogs can do.

But my original point was, he's alpha and he can do whatever he likes to the dogs below him. That means he can lie around and not give a rat's arse for much of the time, but abruptly change his rules when someone has his favourite kind of bone or something. Whether he's a benevolent alpha or not doesn't especially come into it. I think he's benevolent, but my idea of benevolent has been coloured by seeing Penny's obssessive tyranny when she was alpha dog. Pyry rarely starts arguments, and I think that's because he's a secure alpha, but he also won't hesitate to start something if it will benefit him enough to outweigh the cost of the effort and potential damage he might take in using force. That's a natural way to look at all fights in animals, ritualised or serious. Even a ritualised fight costs a lot in energy, stress, risk of the confrontation escalating and becoming dangerous....

Having thought about this some more, I think what happened with Pyry and Jill demonstrates how consistency in dogs is different to how humans consider consistency. The consistency in our dog pack is in the certainty that whatever the top dog (or humans) want, they get. Consistency is certainly very important for establishing boundaries and training, but I've never had a problem with changing the rules as I go, and my dog has never had a problem following my new and confusing lead. She knows she's allowed on the furniture sometimes but not others. Seems inconsistent and confusing, but she's not confused because she also knows she's allowed on the furniture only if she's invited by me. Furniture by invitation only is consistent. So Pyry can suddenly decide one day that he wants Jills pig's ear that she's taking forever to eat, and even though it's been months since he last tried to steal something like that, the consistency is in the certainty that he will take it if he decides he wants it. Does that make any sense to anyone? Incidentally, stealing is not tolerated and is one time that we will intervene.

Houndlove, I totally agree with your idea of pack hierarchy and where humans come into it. I'm pretty sure our dogs think people are magic. We can do all sorts of things they can't begin to comprehend, but I think they still appreciate them. We go out hunting and bring back meat from cows, pigs, lambs and chicken. We must be the cleverest hunters ever. And Pyry saw me catch an injured magpie once. He seems to think I can pull birds out of the sky, now. I love how superstitious dogs are. [] This is just what I've come to believe on my own, and maybe I'm very wrong, but it just doesn't make sense to me that I've met a lot of dogs that have challenged my dogs, but have never tried to challenge me if dogs see humans as part of the dog hierarchy.

My dogs do NOT go from a growl to a fight. The growlee backs off or ceases the undesired behavior and that's the end of it.

Thats exactly what happens here too,a growl is enough obviously because my dogs have never fought,scuffled or anything like that.I prefer not to interfere in dog to dog interaction/communication,they do it so much better than i ever could.
My dogs arent keen on jumpy,bouncing puppies,they both react exactly the same when we come across pups when out walking and they jump all over them or just generally bounce around them,which is a short growl and sometimes an air snap,never anything more.9 times out of 10 this works and the pup backs off and comes in slower which my dogs are happy with,if the pup doesnt get it then i ask the owner to back them off.Well behaved older dogs are the best teachers when it comes to pups with no manners,they do a clearer and better job than any human ever could.
I would never tell one of my dogs off for growling at the other one,it is the way they communicate and it works.

Espencer what do you do if one of your dogs growls at the other,how can you teach the other dog why he's being growled at better than his companion? Wouldnt stifling natural dog communication be to the detriment of your dogs relationiship with eachother.How do they tell eachother to back off when you wont allow it?

Like i said i never interfere,unless a fight was coming,which is something i've never had to deal with as yet,so i think letting them sort things out with out me confusing the situation by butting in works.

Here's what happened HERE yesterday, speaking of alpha dogs.
 
Four of the boys were in their crates on the lower level enjoying fresh bones.  I typically crate them or send them outside to play when I need to do the boring housework.  Since the hunters are getting a bit close to the house (illegally I might add since rifle season hasn't even started yet) I tend to keep them inside a bit more and crate them when I need to do something without them under my feet.  When I came UPstairs to do the cleaning up here, Sheba and Tyler were so far up my rear that I couldn't have passed gas if I'd needed to.  So I sent them out to play on the front deck.  Our front deck runs the entire length of the house and is very wide.  I have gates at both sets of stairs so it's a safe place, and because we aren't using it to come in and out (slippery) the snow cover is pretty pristine.  So they are out there running, playing, having a ball while I finish vacuming and when I call them in, only Sheba comes.  Tyler, very unlike him, ignores me.  Sheba walked back out the door, touched Tyler with her nose...that's it.....and both came in the house together.
 
My alpha bitch didn't need to grab his collar (although she WILL do that if someone is trying to get OFF the deck and he gets too close to the gate), she didn't growl or snarl or anything else....she simply touched him gently with her nose and he complied with her wishes.
 
And I'm gonna interfer with a growl?  Nope.  The pack order works far too effectively here.

ORIGINAL: Edie

I would never tell one of my dogs off for growling at the other one,it is the way they communicate and it works.

Espencer what do you do if one of your dogs growls at the other,how can you teach the other dog why he's being growled at better than his companion? Wouldnt stifling natural dog communication be to the detriment of your dogs relationiship with eachother.How do they tell eachother to back off when you wont allow it?

Like i said i never interfere,unless a fight was coming,which is something i've never had to deal with as yet,so i think letting them sort things out with out me confusing the situation by butting in works.

 
The way they communicate is first body lenguage and attitude and  if that didnt work THEN growling, you have to see what is the cause of the growling, if the one that growls is the one that got closer to the one that was calm that can be a sign of dominance like "thats my toy, leave it" those dominance situations are the ones that happen most of the times, it can happen also that the calm dog is just bothering the growling dog and then the growling dog does it to be like "hey back off", if it happens with a "back off" situation then i take the dog that it is being growled at away for being the instigator BUT i just dont lets them resolve his issues by themselves because probably the instigator wont listen and then they will start fighting
 
Like is said before, if the dogs from the people here in the forum go away on "back off" situations with just a growl thats fine, but people here that ask the questions maybe dont have dogs as well trained as them, they dont have as much discipline, boundries, etc and they can do whatever they want, then their dogs wont go away with just a growl and there is more chances to have a fight because you were "letting them resolve their issues themselves"
 
I dont need to teach them why they are being growled at, they know it very well but after body lenguage and attitude they didnt listen (if we are talking about the second case)
 
I will give you an example, i spend a lot of time every weekend in my friends house, he has 2 dogs, my friend does not do any kind of training or discipline whatsoever, dog 1 is smaller but more dominant than dog 2, when me or my wife are giving attention to dog 1 then dog 2 always comes to receive attention too, the thing is that if dog 1 goes away to receive attention from someone else then dog 2 follows him, IMO dog 2 is making sure that dog 1 does not claim for himself every human in the house, so when dog 2 always comes where dog 1 is getting attention then he growls to dog 2, when that happens i make dog 2 go away since dog 2 is the instigator, everytime dog 1 growls dog 2 does not give a cr*p (maybe because he senses that dog 1 is nervous and he does not takes him seriously) but i dont want to have the chance that i get a fight right in my lap since they have  fought before
 
Now a dominance growl is the one i always suppress because IMO the human is the only one that should be dominant, not 2nd or 3rd place in the pack is allowed and thats for the same reason, maybe the people here in the forums have a pack well define in hierarchy but maybe the new ones asking for advice have 2 dogs that are equal dominant and then their dogs will fight 24/7 for the higher position since they are allowing the pack to have a hierarchy. Also since the person could be not at experience there is the chance that the dog in the highest position could feel that the human can be a follower too and then we could now have the dog trying to be dominant with the human, with other dogs in the street, with his toys, food, etc and thats why IMO is better to suppress any kind of dominance in a dog before it gets worse

Glenda, how does sex relate to the hierarchy in your lot? Do you have an alpha bitch and an alpha dog? I'm just curious. I'm also curious to know if you have a definite ladder hierarchy or if it's only really clear who the top dog(s) is/are?

Actually, Pyry had another moment recently. Penny and Pyry swap dinner bowls every evening after they finish their dinner to lick up any specks of food the other left behind. Penny finishes first because she has less food and eats faster, and a couple of nights ago she got it into her head that she might be able to convince Pyry to swap before he was actually finished. She went up and stood side on practically on top of Pyry's dish. I and my mother were both watching and were quite aware that Penny was going to get herself in trouble, but we weren't going to step in. I feel that it's not my jurisdiction to stop my dog from taking enormous risks she knows full well might get her into difficulties. I said, "Penny, you're going to get bitten" and just watched carefully in case I needed to step in to diffuse the situation.

Pyry certainly did get angry, but he was incredibly restrained. He made himself big and made a lot of noise and snapped, but instead of jumping on her like he would do to Jill, he ran around behind her and nipped her bottom. He was obviously really peeved about it all, but the nip he gave her was very inhibited. He barked quite a lot, but didn't make any further moves on Penny. Instead, he bit a plastic bag stuffed with other plastic bags, presumably to satisfy his desire to express his anger by biting something? I dunno. Anyway, Pyry never picks on Penny and I think that's because she's the bottom dog. I guess he doesn't feel a need to remind her who's at the top, whereas Jill is much closer to his position.

The reason why we didn't intervene is a) because we were very confident that Pyry wouldn't hurt Penny. He's never hurt anyone, despite some noisy arguments. He tends to make out like he's going to bite, but never actually makes contact. And b) we've had some serious hierarchy issues in the past and our local behaviourist tells us it's best not to get involved if you can help it. We always support our alpha dog unless our alpha dog is being unreasonable or trying to steal from the other dogs. Our behaviourist warns that you can make hierarchy problems worse by getting involved. He says the best thing you can do is walk away if you can be sure no one is going to get hurt, or failing that, watch calmly until they sort it out. When dog fights get nasty, you certainly have to intervene, but our dog fights don't really get nasty anymore. We have some very balanced dogs that stick to the ritualistic aggression rules their wolf ancestors use.

I have five males and one female, but by golly Sheba is clearly the alpha bitch and was when we had more than one female as well.  Thor is the alpha dog, and they have kind of a partnership going on is the best way to describe it.  They are absolutely equals and both know it.  As for the other four, I don't believe they have a rung on the ladder...they seem to be the two alphas and "other".