Dog Community

Alphas can do whatever they like

Posted : 10/22/2006 7:40:46 PM

I know there's a lot of contention about the alpha dog issue and how we should behave towards our dogs in order to convince them that we're the leader of the pack or whatever. Well, I've come to the conclusion that alphas can do whatever they like.

Demonstrating this, this morning we were taking our three dogs for a run down by the lake. Jill and Penny had exhausted themselves chasing balls into the lake and swimming and running around, but Pyry, our alpha dog, was still pretty fresh because he doesn't do the swimming and running thing. We'd just put all the dogs back on lead and were heading up this large hill that we often run up with the dogs. Pyry decided that he wanted to run, but he didn't want to run on his own. He wanted specifically to chase Jill up the hill and he started dancing around her, body slamming her, growling, trying to make her run. She was really tired and she didn't want to run. She growled at him and instantly he threw himself at her, all play forgotten in his sudden need to tell her that she ought to remember that he's top dog and if he wants her to run, then she will run.

Fighting dogs on leash are bad news, especially when someone has both dogs, so I took one and we pulled them apart. Jill did her best to stay away from Pyry, but it took Pyry a good ten minutes before he stopped trying to have a go at her whenever he got close enough. Pyry is for the most part a very mild-mannered little man. He rarely gets involved in disputes and rarely cares who gets fed first and who gets through the door first or who gets greeted first. I thought this was a really good example of how alpha dogs see the world. I believe they don't really care what the others do UNTIL they want something. Whether they want one of the subordinate dogs to run so they can chase them or whether they want something a subordinate dog has, it's all about their prerogative to do whatever they want to at the time.

For this reason, I don't see the whole proving your position as alpha thing to be that important. It's important to establish yourself at the beginning with something like NILIF, but once we're all settled, I as the most alpha member can do whatever I like to whoever I like. That means I can approach them for pats, or I can give them treats for no reason, or I can demand that they do something if they want pats or treats. I can push them around or I can invite them to break the rules or I can spend time with them or ignore them. They accept any crazy thing I want to do because it's my right to do them and expect the dogs to go along with it.

While I might be more understanding than Pyry when something I want is hard for a dog to do, I sometimes will still insist. Sometimes Penny gets so excited before a walk that she can't seem to stop barking. I know it's very hard for her, but that isn't a good reason to let her do it when I really don't want her to. So we don't go anywhere until she's quiet, and if she loses control and starts barking, we go backwards and she has to sit quietly before we go again.

Anyway, Pyry was completely within his rights to take Jill to task for refusing to run when he wanted her to, even though she was buggered. In his mind, she challenged him. While I would never ask a tired dog to run, I do on a regular basis ask my dog to do something she doesn't want to do. She grumbles, but she does it because I'm higher ranking than her.

Incidentally, I'm finding that I don't really like to talk about my position in the pack in dog terms. It seems to me that dogs are very aware that we are not dogs and don't follow quite the same rules as them. I use terms like higher ranking and pack leader because there are no words I can think of to describe the human who makes all the decisions without resorting to wolf terms. I'm pretty sure most dogs lump all people in an 'alpha' category above alpha dogs even. Otherwise, I think we'd get dominant dogs walking up to us and challenging us all the time, rather than them mostly just challenging other dogs.

Just some thoughts on pack structure and hierarchy.

Xeph

Posted : 10/22/2006 7:59:58 PM

Man...I have to say I disagree. What kind of GOOD Alpha leader tries to make another tired animal run for any reason OTHER than to save its life? As Glenda always states, the best leader is a benevolent one, animal or human. The benevolent leaders keep their positions for a good long time. The jerks are usually ganged up on and ousted.

I don't think your other dog was at all right trying to go at your other dog because he was tired and he'd had enough. But hey, that's me.

Elizabeth

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:05:11 PM

I agree with you that the whole alpha thing is taken way to seriously by most dog people, in a dogs mind the alpha status isn't so much the alpha dog dictating their every move so much as the alpha dog can do and make the other dogs do whatever he/she wants whenever he/she wants. Also, I could be wrong but it seems like almost always the alpha dog is a female. We as humans can never hope (and I dont think we should hope) to relate to our dogs like dogs, we relate to them as humans because that's what we are. Somehow our dogs are so good at reading body language that they understand when we are in charge and when we're not, but that does not mean that we can think that we are relating to them as an alpha dog in a pack setting would. I'm sure some people would strongly disagree with me, but that's just my view. I dont feel like growling or biting my dog, so I prefer to get my point across in a less "doggy" like manner[

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You know, I was just going to post a thread about alpha dogs because I have some questions,,if you dont mind I'd like to use your thread to talk about it since you've already started the subject. I have two foster dogs, the female is quite obviously the alpha and my male never stands up to her. Both of my dogs realize that I'm top "dog" and what I say tops whatever my female wants, this is accepted and I dont have any problems with them. My problems arise with how my two dogs act together. My male cannot eat treats, play with a toy, chew on a bone, or even look interested in anything without my female pushing her way in and taking whatever he has (incluiding drinking water). I typically prefer to just let my dogs be dogs and work things out themselves, but it's gotten to the point where I'm reprimading and sometimes even restraining the female when she trys to go after something my male has. I have a small house and my male can't really escape the female and actually enjoy chewing on a bone or playing with a toy because she's constantly picking on him. I've just recently realized in bringing her to some animal shelter functions where there are more dogs around that she has some major alpha issues that I need to work on, she is majorly undersocialized to begin with but if she percieves a dog to be at all challenging the fact that she's in control she will try to fight with them. She also will resource guard (toys, chewys, water...) with dogs that she's known less than a minute and with stuff that isn't even hers, she doesn't care if the other dog had something first if she wants it she will just take it while growling and hackles raised. I know others may disagree with me, but to me this behaviour is completely unacceptable and I will not allow her to keep acting like this. The question that I have is, is there anyway to make her less "alpha"? I realize that at home she will always be the top dog and I'm ok with that withen reason, but when we're out in public in an environment that isn't even hers or she's never seen before is there anyway to show her that she cannot be in charge? I dont expect her to love every dog like my male does, but I would like her to at least ignore the ones she doesn't like and quit trying to boss everyone away from something as simple as a water dish. And also, how would I go about teaching her that if my male has something she cannot take it from him? This is my first experience with a VERY alpha dog, so I'm kind of learning as I go here.

espencer

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:10:43 PM

ORIGINAL: corvus

I know there's a lot of contention about the alpha dog issue and how we should behave towards our dogs in order to convince them that we're the leader of the pack or whatever. Well, I've come to the conclusion that alphas can do whatever they like.

Demonstrating this, this morning we were taking our three dogs for a run down by the lake. Jill and Penny had exhausted themselves chasing balls into the lake and swimming and running around, but Pyry, our alpha dog, was still pretty fresh because he doesn't do the swimming and running thing. We'd just put all the dogs back on lead and were heading up this large hill that we often run up with the dogs. Pyry decided that he wanted to run, but he didn't want to run on his own. He wanted specifically to chase Jill up the hill and he started dancing around her, body slamming her, growling, trying to make her run. She was really tired and she didn't want to run. She growled at him and instantly he threw himself at her, all play forgotten in his sudden need to tell her that she ought to remember that he's top dog and if he wants her to run, then she will run.

Fighting dogs on leash are bad news, especially when someone has both dogs, so I took one and we pulled them apart. Jill did her best to stay away from Pyry, but it took Pyry a good ten minutes before he stopped trying to have a go at her whenever he got close enough. Pyry is for the most part a very mild-mannered little man. He rarely gets involved in disputes and rarely cares who gets fed first and who gets through the door first or who gets greeted first. I thought this was a really good example of how alpha dogs see the world. I believe they don't really care what the others do UNTIL they want something. Whether they want one of the subordinate dogs to run so they can chase them or whether they want something a subordinate dog has, it's all about their prerogative to do whatever they want to at the time.

For this reason, I don't see the whole proving your position as alpha thing to be that important. It's important to establish yourself at the beginning with something like NILIF, but once we're all settled, I as the most alpha member can do whatever I like to whoever I like. That means I can approach them for pats, or I can give them treats for no reason, or I can demand that they do something if they want pats or treats. I can push them around or I can invite them to break the rules or I can spend time with them or ignore them. They accept any crazy thing I want to do because it's my right to do them and expect the dogs to go along with it.

While I might be more understanding than Pyry when something I want is hard for a dog to do, I sometimes will still insist. Sometimes Penny gets so excited before a walk that she can't seem to stop barking. I know it's very hard for her, but that isn't a good reason to let her do it when I really don't want her to. So we don't go anywhere until she's quiet, and if she loses control and starts barking, we go backwards and she has to sit quietly before we go again.

Anyway, Pyry was completely within his rights to take Jill to task for refusing to run when he wanted her to, even though she was buggered. In his mind, she challenged him. While I would never ask a tired dog to run, I do on a regular basis ask my dog to do something she doesn't want to do. She grumbles, but she does it because I'm higher ranking than her.

Incidentally, I'm finding that I don't really like to talk about my position in the pack in dog terms. It seems to me that dogs are very aware that we are not dogs and don't follow quite the same rules as them. I use terms like higher ranking and pack leader because there are no words I can think of to describe the human who makes all the decisions without resorting to wolf terms. I'm pretty sure most dogs lump all people in an 'alpha' category above alpha dogs even. Otherwise, I think we'd get dominant dogs walking up to us and challenging us all the time, rather than them mostly just challenging other dogs.

Just some thoughts on pack structure and hierarchy.

My question is: if Pyry is your alpha dog then what part do YOU play in that pack?

Elizabeth

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:22:02 PM

Can there be an alpha dog even though the dogs see the person as "alpha"?

corvus

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:25:02 PM

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Man...I have to say I disagree. What kind of GOOD Alpha leader tries to make another tired animal run for any reason OTHER than to save its life? As Glenda always states, the best leader is a benevolent one, animal or human. The benevolent leaders keep their positions for a good long time. The jerks are usually ganged up on and ousted.

I don't think your other dog was at all right trying to go at your other dog because he was tired and he'd had enough. But hey, that's me.

Pyry didn't know Jill was too buggered to run anymore, and if he did, I doubt he'd care. He's the most important thing to him, and if he wants to run and play, I highly doubt it even occurs to him to ask if the other dog does. Like I said, I wouln't make a dog run if it was too tired, but then, I know when a dog is too tired and I have human compassion and can relate to that. I've never seen a dog give a flying fart if it was scaring the hell out of another dog it had decided to pick on, either.

I should, though, take this moment to note that if you're consistently abusive to your dog in any way then you won't get the kind of balanced relationship you might want. Pyry is for the most part a benevolent leader. Like I said, mostly he doesn't care who does what, but when he does care, it's his right to get what he wants. Just like when I care, dogs fall in line or they don't get anything they want. Penny was not a benevolent leader and consistently snapped at the other dogs. They didn't gang together and overthrow her, but her own actions did have a lot to do with provoking the beta dog to put her foot down. We all know that if you walk around smacking a dog all the time, it gets frightened of you and starts snapping back. That's not what I was talking about and I should have said that. I was talking about the rights of a high ranking animal.

Angelique

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:36:42 PM

ORIGINAL: barngirl

Can there be an alpha dog even though the dogs see the person as "alpha"?

In a word, "yes".

In any group of dogs, there will always be one who is more naturally "alpha" simply by birthright. Alpha beings whether human or canine are born, not made.

In Cesar's pack, his most dominant dog is a female french bulldog named "Scarlet".

However, this does not mean we as humans should allow any aggression or acting out between the dogs in a collective pack. Most humans are not capable of knowing which dog is the alpha anyway.

Both wolves and dogs exist in a fluid state. As older members die and younger members reach maturity, pack dynamics can shift.

Anyone who maintains a pack of ever changing dogs which come and go (as Cesar or any doggie daycare worker can tell you) letting dogs act on their natural born status and changes within a pack dynamic, would be pure folly on the part of the human pack leader.

The bottom line is simple:

All humans are leaders, all dogs are followers...and, aggression is not allowed.

tiffy

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:47:27 PM

Barngirl- I don't belive your female is the alpha. My alpha does not care whos fed first, who drinks the water and he will let one of the others take a bone, almost from his mouth. Sounds to me like she is jockeying for position.

Elizabeth

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:53:40 PM

Tiffy, so do you think that by me intervening and not letting her get away with picking on him that would help her become less obssesive and controlling where he is involved?

corvus

Posted : 10/22/2006 8:55:56 PM

To clarify my take on pack hierarchy wrt people, I tend to think of the dog hierarchy as being removed from the human hierarchy, even in the dog's view of the world. It seems to me that dogs have their hierarchy sorted out in a ladder fashion for small packs, and consider humans to be in a whole seperate class above their hierarchy that's not so ladder-like. My reasons for believing this stem from the lack of truly dominant confrontations I see. I've seen plenty of dogs walk up to other dogs signalling dominance and prepared to follow through with it, but they don't do that to people as a rule. I'm not sure if it's inherent or if dogs learn that all people are higher than dogs as puppies.

In that way, I say we have an alpha dog, even though he's completely submissive with us and would never challenge one of us on what we declared we wanted of him.

Barngirl, sounds like you've got a bit of a tyrant, which was exactly what Penny was in the period that she was top dog. The others could barely move for her. We started to intervene when she was being stupid about it, but it never really helped much. Sometimes interfering with how a top dog manages the lower dog can cause even more troubles. Penny was like that because she didn't like being at the top. It's a nerve-racking place to be because the top dog has responsibilities and has to take care of threats and challenges. Penny held onto her position desperately because the last time she'd lost it, the dog that took over tried to kill her. Preventing her from keeping the other dog(s) under her strict control just made her more anxious about it all and therefore quicker than ever to adminster discipline.

In the end, Penny got older and mellowed and once she lost her position to Jill, she settled into the bottom position of the pack with something like a sigh of relief. Echoed by us all. Now she's got 2 dogs above her to take care of things before it becomes her problem, and she's much happier.

Perhaps you can try toning down your tyrant by being stricter with her yourself and making her go through you every time she wants something. You could also try intervening when she gets nasty with your boy by body blocking her and moving her back by stepping into her space. I don't know what your dog's history is, so I'm not sure if either would help, but you never know. I'm just glad my tyrant realised life was a lot easier when you weren't at the top.

Elizabeth

Posted : 10/22/2006 9:05:49 PM

From what we can tell, my females history is pretty much three different homes in her first and only year of life and was pretty much "our of control" in all three homes. Her last home, and the person who dropped her off at the shelter sounded very overbearing and almost like someone who might have physically abused her. I have been trying to impliment the NILF theory with both my dogs and maybe I'll try being even stricter and more demanding with her and see if it works, she is always overly attentive but she is also a husky/bc mix so I figured that was just what she's like. I always hate to intervene with my dogs when they aren't fighting but she has gotten to be too much and I can't just let her keep bullying sport around like this. I really dont want to make her feel more stressed out or make the situation worse, but I guess if something isn't working I can always stop and try something else.

corvus

Posted : 10/22/2006 9:27:59 PM

Yeah, I don't think you'll do any lasting damage by trying things out. As long as you keep a close eye on the situation and stop what you're doing if it seems to be making it worse. It might be a good idea to keep a record of when your girl bullies so you can see if it's getting better or worse over time.

It's a bit of a delicate one. If Tiffy is right and the dog is just jockeying for position, you'd think your boy would sort it out. Having said that, some boys are super laid back, especially around girls. My housemate's dog was certainly higher up then Penny was when we were living with them, but he still let her steal his food all the time. I think he would have put her in her place if she'd tried to make him do something, though. He'd just step back and let her eat all his dinner. She never really pushed him. I think you should be able to tell who's really at the top by who acts submissive. Raz my housemate's dog never acted submissive when Penny dived into his food. But when a top dog has a go at a lower dog, they'll normally put their tail down, pin their ears close to their heads and keep their heads low. Often they won't meet the dominant dog's eyes. And if they're fighting, the top dog is usually the one to go back for more and the lower ranking one will try to stay clear of the dominant dog.

glenmar

Posted : 10/23/2006 6:57:49 AM

Corvus, I don't like to disagree either, but it sounds to me like you've got a bully on your hands.

I have two clear alphas....my bitch and Thor. They are the clear cut "leaders" of the dogs and to give you an example....we're out for our romp in the woods and fields....I always take Shadow, who is rather excitable with Tyler, who is laid back and easy going, and Sheba. Shadow will get a little big for his britches and do the non-stop barking at Sheba, or try to entice Tyler to play, but he's excitable and tries too hard and gets too rough. Sheba will give him the look, and if that fails, she'll give him a nose nudge. I don't have to do a thing, Sheba keeps him in line. If Shadow goes off the path and into a part of the woods where I don't want him...and they pretty much know where it's ok to go into the woods since we avoid the DEEP woods where you can't walk between the trees (but maybe the bears can), Sheba is the one who brings him back, but actually the WORST she does is grab him by the collar.

The second group, and while I've been criticized for ONLY taking 3 dogs at a time off lead, I take groups that are balanced and thus easily managable, is Thor, Theo and sometimes excitable Thunder. Thor behaves much the same way that Sheba does when someone (usually Thunder) gets too wild or out of line. Although I have seen him also do a body check and then use one paw to hold Thunder down until he settles. There is no fighting involved here...no growling, no teeth....Thor will simple body check Thunder and then stand there holding him down.

To ME this is what an alpha dog is supposed to act like. And in any case I can thank Thor or Sheba and request a release and it's done before I'm done asking.

I've got BIG dogs and a lot of them and they can play really rough but it doesn't go beyond play, and I'm sorry to say this, but I sure would NEVER allow a fight because someone is trying to bully someone else into more play. Even less than alpha has a right to say "no, not this time".

Scout in Canada

Posted : 10/23/2006 7:28:40 AM

I'm pretty sure most dogs lump all people in an 'alpha' category above alpha dogs even. Otherwise, I think we'd get dominant dogs walking up to us and challenging us all the time, rather than them mostly just challenging other dogs.

Although I do think when it comes to kids there are sometimes issues with the dog being unsure which place he has. I often hear of dogs "challenging" kids in ways that seem like dominance. And I don't think every dog naturally places humans in a dominant category - I've met dogs before who I felt were trying to challenge me or their owner in subtle ways, like staring them down, barking and being pushy for what they want, etc.

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/23/2006 8:08:15 AM

The test really is whether the humans in the household can get the dog to accede to their wishes without force. Subordinate dogs generally defer to more dominant dogs, rather than the dominant dog having to act to enforce his position.
Take my little quiz:
When your dog greets you, does the base of his tail go up or down?
Which of your dogs gets to the door first when company comes?
Which dog has lived in the household longer?
Gender and age of each dog.
Which dog steals the others' toys?
Which dog humps or places body parts over the body of which other dogs?