Alphas can do whatever they like

However, this does not mean we as humans should allow any aggression or acting out between the dogs in a collective pack. Most humans are not capable of knowing which dog is the alpha anyway

 
I disagree with this.  While it's true that unceasing violence should not be tolerated, anytime that the human interferes with the settling of differences between two dogs in the pack that human unwittingly changes the natural balance of the order.  I won't interfere if Xerxes is pestering Gaia and she growls, air snaps and then bites him.  She has to be able to tell him, in dog language what is acceptable and what her limits are.  The second that I interfere and admonish her for doing that, I reinforce to Xerxes that what he's doing is acceptable and what she's doing is not.  Thus I've told her that she is NOT allowed to tell him to back off, which puts her in a subordinate position, not to me but to Xerxes.  Inevitably she'll become more frustrated with that position and one day will become more violent towards him or they will end up not getting along.
 
I won't let aggression for it's own sake manifest, but I will allow each to set their own limits-and that defensive aggression is necessary, I think, for normal pack behavior to occur.

I absolutely agree, Xerxes.  In humans' efforts to become the leader of the pack, they sometimes overstep the bounds of sense in "mediating" doggy arguments.  My dogs are free to work out their own differences unless there is a clear sign that there will be violent behavior, which is not tolerated - I hate blood on the furniture LOL.  Their little snarks and grrs are inconsequential, and human intervention can often elevate a subordinate dog to status it doesn't rightly deserve, which can cause more friction to build between the dogs.

IMO I would not allow the most little grrr in my pack, any kind of upset behavior will not be tolerated, it would be just like let your kids say bad words (grrr in the dog world) to eachother to "resolve" thier differences
 
A subordinate dog wont elevete his status since i actually would do the same to avoid him show any kind of higher level in the hierarchy
 
I am number 1 and the rest is number 2 and thats it, all number 2 are equal

I liken a growl to "back off a bit, I don't like that", much as when I am checking out at the grocery and trying to use the little plastic card machine and whoever is behind me is intent on ramming THEIR cart up my arse.  Now I could turn around and blast them or I could turn around and say, "excuse me, but your cart up my arse is terribly uncomfortable.  My "excuse me, etc" is MY early warning system, much like a dogs growl is theirs.
 
We had a poster who completely blasted me for allowing my dog and a 10 month old foster child to be in the same room with me when I was on the computer doing homework.  As far as the dogs are concerned the MOST prime real estate is where ever I am, and under my desk is PRIMO.  The child crawled under the desk as well, and was poking Thor who gave a little half arsed growl.  Now that was MY cue to see what the heck SHE was doing to him.  I had no concerns that Thor would bite her.....that little growl was "hey, I don't like that" and "MOMMMMMMMM".  And I used that growl to help the child understand that THIS is not something that Thor likes, and this is not something she should do because it HURTS him.
 
I prefer to leave that "early warning system" firmly in place.  Because if I extinguish it, then there is absolutely no warning before the teeth come out.  And I don't want teeth coming out with the dogs any more than I want them coming out with a foster child.

I see the dogs' hierarchy as nested within the greater household order. Conrad most definatley sees himself as alpha dog--he's older and has been living with us longer than Marlowe has. Marlowe is generally submissive to him without argument, though there have been some moments. Both dogs, however see me as definate Head of Household and see DH as only slightly below that. Conrad will give up a high-value toy to me when he'd never do such a thing with Marlowe, but between the two of them, Conrad definately performs all the classic alpha behaviors.
 
I do keep an eye on things when high value toys are involved. I try to reinforce Conrad's position by redirecting Marlowe if I see him getting too close to Conrad's horde and I do not punish Conrad for hording or for growling if Marlowe starts to overstep a boundary. It's not going to kill Marlowe to wait until Conrad gets bored with the toys before he gets to swoop in and play. Every now and then Conrad gets proactive and will really behave like a complete jerk to Marlowe for a few days. Last time it happened I posted here and was advised to just keep enforcing Conrad's dominant position, which I did and all was well. I don't like blood on the furniture either, so I'd rather redirect Marlowe if he's going to attempt some small display of social climbing, but if Conrad wants to growl over it or snarl as a warning, that works too.
 
I think my dogs know the difference between a human and a dog. They have their own little doggy society, but ultimately, I'm the god-like (benevolent) overlord. A different being entirely. And the cats? Aliens. []

Of course you have to see if the dog that is not growling is the one causing problems, if your dogs have good discipline then they wont upset eachother since you worked to show them what the limits are, dogs communicate with the attitude they project
 
Like i said, if you worked on discipline then the dog will stop the unwanted behavior by sensing the attitude of the other members of the pack
 
Growling comes after they "talked" to eachother with body lenguage and attitide and it didnt work, dogs are not like humans where they main way to communicate is with sound (talking), i dont allow growling because the difference between that and a fight is less than one second
 
Before growling the dog ALREADY sent the message that he is not happy with the other dog behavior, since the other dog didnt listen THEN comes the growling, and after that the fight
 
Is up to you to maintain the level to just body lenguage or let it go all the way to growling, but if you let your dogs growl it will be like playing russian rulette, some times it will be enough and some times will go all the way to a fight

My dogs do NOT go from a growl to a fight.  The growlee backs off or ceases the undesired behavior and that's the end of it.  On the extremely rare occassions that we have little tiffs a firm "that will do" is all it takes to end the squabble.  I stand by allowing a growl.

Well all the other dogs are NOT like your dogs []
 
I dont have "extremely rare occassions" at all because i dont allow them to get all the way there, and since other people here have dogs that are not like your dogs then the safest way to avoid fights is to avoid growling (besides other things)
 
Is just matter to avoid going from body lenguage to growling and then to fighting, the time from one to another like i said before can be less than one second sometimes if it crosses that line
 

I am in the same boat as Glenda. I have three dogs, which is nothing compared to her pack, but a growl has never led to a fight. A growl means back off and they always back off. I am very intune with my dogs, so I know the difference of a back off growl and the other. A firm " leave it " from me is as far as it gets. I do not set my dogs up to fail, bones and high values are given in separate areas, where no one can ever fight, same with food.

ORIGINAL: espencer

IMO I would not allow the most little grrr in my pack, any kind of upset behavior will not be tolerated, it would be just like let your kids say bad words (grrr in the dog world) to eachother to "resolve" thier differences

A subordinate dog wont elevete his status since i actually would do the same to avoid him show any kind of higher level in the hierarchy

I am number 1 and the rest is number 2 and thats it, all number 2 are equal

How did I know you'd show up in this thread? [8|] 
Apparently, you haven't been listening, or reading, long enough.  None of us are pushovers when it comes to our dogs.  They are obedient, and they recognize our importance in the hierarchy.  Not the same as never being able to express your anxiety or displeasure, which produces a lot of frustration that can lead to a worse outcome. 
By the way espencer, other than your own dogs, how many aggressive dogs have you trained, and how many behavior seminars do you attend each year?

Sigh. Whatever, espencer.  I'm just a treat dispensing butler/roommate type who lives with SIX very well behaved and obedient german shepherds.  I must not have a brain in my head to raise them the way that I do........

ORIGINAL: espencer

Of course you have to see if the dog that is not growling is the one causing problems, if your dogs have good discipline then they wont upset eachother since you worked to show them what the limits are, dogs communicate with the attitude they project

Like i said, if you worked on discipline then the dog will stop the unwanted behavior by sensing the attitude of the other members of the pack

Growling comes after they "talked" to eachother with body lenguage and attitide and it didnt work, dogs are not like humans where they main way to communicate is with sound (talking), i dont allow growling because the difference between that and a fight is less than one second

Before growling the dog ALREADY sent the message that he is not happy with the other dog behavior, since the other dog didnt listen THEN comes the growling, and after that the fight

Is up to you to maintain the level to just body lenguage or let it go all the way to growling, but if you let your dogs growl it will be like playing russian rulette, some times it will be enough and some times will go all the way to a fight

 
I understand where you are coming from espence, but I don't think that your way will work for every dog family.  I've rarely seen a progression from posturing to growling directly to fighting.  The next step, in most dogs that I've observed is the air snap.  After the air snap comes another growly air snap lunge combo.  If this is still ignored then comes the attack. 
 
As far as everyone being number 2 in the pack, I think you'll notice, under careful observations of your pack-including body language and physical positioning, that there really is a number two and number three and so on, but you're not noticing it.  These signals can be very very miniscule; ear position, head position, tail wag, or other behaviors as well: who runs faster,who bumps into whom when running, who initiates play, etc.
 
If you choose not to honor these cues and reinforce the wrong things, you may still be setting yourself up for a problem later on.  On the same note, you may be managing the problem effectively- it's not up to me to decide or to judge. 

Hey dont get mad at me, i am not saying that you all have dogs that go from growling to fighting  [], if they dont do that is fine, i am talking about the cases i have seen with my friends dogs who have not any train at all

I never said that ALL the growling becomes into fighting 100% of the times, somebody can have 2 dominant dogs that will fight all the time for the higher position, none of them will back off because i have seen it, untill you show them that the human is the alpha and non of them will be higher than the other and that is when they calm down
 
You have seen that growling does not transform into fighting and I have seen that sometimes does, so depends on the experiences of everybody

So like i said, by personal experience i rather not to let the dogs growling, if you do and they dont fight then thats fine but i dont think some of the posters have the experience you have to have a pack that can growl without fighting sometimes

Spiritdogs: You dont want to know who's seminar i am going next month []

I'm not mad at anyone.  I'm pointing out that not every method works 100% every time, and what works for you may not work for others. 

I am glad you are taking an interest in attending a dog related seminar.  I would hope that you balance whichever method it is with another method as well.  That might aid in your understanding of dog behavior and translate to a better experience as well. 

On another note, since you do not allow growling in your pack, do you also not allow wrestling? And in this wrestling if there is a little bit of growling behavior do you stop the play at this point?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I'm not mad at anyone.  I'm pointing out that not every method works 100% every time, and what works for you may not work for others. 

I am glad you are taking an interest in attending a dog related seminar.  I would hope that you balance whichever method it is with another method as well.  That might aid in your understanding of dog behavior and translate to a better experience as well. 

On another note, since you do not allow growling in your pack, do you also not allow wrestling? And in this wrestling if there is a little bit of growling behavior do you stop the play at this point?

Wrestling is fine and i think i can know the difference between "growling play" and "dominant growling" [], the second one is more deep, more "stressful like" if i can call it that way, the first one comes with a higher pitch sometimes, is hard to explain by just writing about it