Dog Community

HELP - Gandolf went after me!

Posted : 10/12/2006 4:29:37 PM

Some of you may know me from previous posts. I have a dog, Gandolf, with aggressive issues. I'll try and keep this somewhat short, but want to give enough info so you'll understand the situation.

Keep in mind that although Gandolf is dog aggressive and has some human aggression, but he has ALWAYS been perfect with me and DH, UNTIL the other night. We were doing some desensitization work with him with a friend. She was sitting calmly on the couch tossing him the extra special chicken treats. Gandolf was on a gentle leader and a leash held by my husband. The friend asked a question about the tightness on his gentle leader and I got up and leaned over Gandolf and showed how it was loose around the snout, but tight around the head. Gandolf was on a down-stay. I backed away from him, we continued talking, and then I went back to him and touched him on the top of the head, and he suddenly lunged at me, put his mouth on my hand (left no marks, but I could feel one of his canine teeth), went towards my leg and tore my pants (did not connect with skin). DH pulled him back and I stepped back also. We didn't correct him as the situation was unfolding because it happened so unbelievably fast and also because we were all so shocked it happened - I have always been able to handle him, etc., with absolutely no aggression.

Anyway, we consulted with our behaviorist because we have always said that if he was aggressive with us, we would seriously considering euthanizing him. She suggested we get him on Prozac - she says that she has seen it do wonders for some, but not all dogs with aggression problems. She did express concern that he was aggressive with me and also that he tried to connect more than once.

DH took him to the vet today, and they drew blood and are doing a thyroid test. DH says Gandolf lunged, and barked at the vet when the vet tried to examine his ears. He has never been aggressive with the vet, so thank god he was muzzled.

Also, Gandolf seems to be more hypervigilant than ever. He's part GSD and I know they have that propensity, but it seems to be getting worse. We do have some reason to believe that Gandolf may have suffered a head injury before we adopted him - that a child in his previous home dropped a heavy object on his head. It seems logical that this could be the cause of some of this escalated aggression? If so, is there anything we can do about a head injury - anything we can ask the vet to look for? Also, does anyone have experience with Prozac for aggression issues? Anything else we should be doing?????

Rachel

Posted : 10/12/2006 4:49:41 PM

Follow the vets and behavorists advice. I have no advice here as the second my dog turned onto me after a history of aggression towards others I would have to put him down. I would say no sudden movements and don't show the dog you're fearful of him. I wish you the best of luck.

Karen

Posted : 10/12/2006 5:00:49 PM

My Chevy was on Prozac for agression. It was explained to me that In some cases it does help with agression. The Prozac did'nt help in chevy's case. His agression came from his vaccines.

I hope the

rozac work's for you...

schleide

Posted : 10/12/2006 5:14:03 PM

I am so sorry this happened! I am no expert by any means, but we have some aggression issue too... To be honest, even though it was completely unexpected by you, this may have just been way too much stress for Gandolf - think of it this way: (i) you were working on desensitization, so he was already somewhat stressed by the situation, (ii) you had him restrained, which can increase his stress because he can't walk away if he is uncomfortable, (iii) you had him in a down position which makes him vulnerable, and then (iv) you leaned over him (scary for dogs) and were tugging on the thig restraining him, which may have made him further stressed out. From what I have heard, often dogs that are less than sure of themselves "go after" the person after they are walking away, which might explain why he waited until you got up...

I unfortunately don't have a real solution... Wesley used lunge and snap at DH and I and that has stopped, although he still has some issues with strangers... I know you are probably feeling hurt and confused right now (I always did - I felt like, I love my dog so much, why would he do this to me) and I can only say that I know how you feel, but this was Gandolf telling you in dog language that he was very uncomfortable with what you were doing. I hope you can find an answer to whether this could possibly be the result of an old head injury or a medical issue... I don't know anything about Prozac and aggression, so I hope someone else chimes in soon...

Janey

Posted : 10/12/2006 6:11:15 PM

Schleide - very good point about how potentially stressed G. may have been - the behaviorist indicated that if we do further desensitization that we muzzle him and let him move around a little, so he doesn't feel so restrained. He could have really harmed me, and he didn't, so he may have been saying "I don't mean to do this, but you're really stressing me out!"

Chevy - I think I've seen some posts about how your dog has had aggression resulting from vaccines - could you give me some more info?

Karen

Posted : 10/12/2006 6:43:35 PM

ORIGINAL: JaneyB

Schleide - very good point about how potentially stressed G. may have been - the behaviorist indicated that if we do further desensitization that we muzzle him and let him move around a little, so he doesn't feel so restrained. He could have really harmed me, and he didn't, so he may have been saying "I don't mean to do this, but you're really stressing me out!"

Chevy - I think I've seen some posts about how your dog has had aggression resulting from vaccines - could you give me some more info?

I can give you any information about my own case that you would like.   To start off, I have been to many vet's with chevy from the time I got him.   I was told he had Fear Agression or Spaniel rage & just plain bad & agressive behavior.
We spent a year in training classes & had a private behaviorist coming to the house to work with him.     He has also been on Prozac.   Nothing helped.
The true diagnosis turned out to be Vaccinosis...
An allopath vet does'nt seem to be able to help with this. I had to go to a Homeopath for help.

Chevy is one of the cases in this month's issue of Pet Behavior Rx    There are two cases in this issue. chevy's & another.

[linkhttp://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/oct2006.html]http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/oct2006.html[/link]

Here is another good link on Vaccinosis

[linkhttp://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/oct2006.html]http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/oct2006.html[/link]

If there is anything I can tell you or help you with,   just ask..

Karen

Posted : 10/12/2006 6:46:58 PM

Sorry, I forgot to give you the link for Vaccinosis.

[linkhttp://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm]http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm[/link]

nfowler

Posted : 10/12/2006 11:58:17 PM

Oh JaneyB, I'm sorry. I wonder if there isn't something physical going on. How old is Gandolf? How long have you had him? I'm sure you've written of him before and maybe I just need to search the archives, but here's a place to revisit some of the history.

So, is the news from the behaviorist any good? I, too, wonder if the stress of that whole situation might have been too much for him.

I worry, too, about what he might do if he felt the same way next time.

Janey

Posted : 10/13/2006 11:25:44 AM

nfowler - G. is about 4 years old, we think, and we've had him for 3 years. He's a shelter dog and we don't know a lot about his previous history, save that he lived with kids and that the home life was probably pretty chaotic. When we first got him, his interactions with other dogs was all over the board - tail tucked and submissive to trying to mount all dogs at the dog park. He started having fights with dogs he had not previously met, and he did bite a friend's dog in the face, so we limited his exposure to dogs - he gets to interact with our dog, and two other dogs he knows well.

In regards to humans, he at first seemed overly friendly - jumping, etc. That kind of segued into mounting and a couple of nipping incidents that we stupidly excused as part of his shepherd heritage. He then bit a friend who accidentally stepped on him. We consulted with a behaviorist and started working on desensitization and we've used NILIF since we got him. He has since bitten two people who have passed by in the alley. All bites caused brusing, but no punctures or torn flesh. And then the incident with me.

His vet check was "stellar" (the vet's words) - blood work all normal, including thyroid, heart rate excellent, range of motion excellent, etc. He did prescribe Prozac, so we're going to try it. The behaviorist says we should see some results in about a week, and we will meet with her after that time and see what's up.

I'm not afraid of him - I do think the combo of circumstances stressed him - but I just hope that the set of circumstances he's comfortable in doesn't dwindle to the point that we have to keep him confined from everything. And I don't think living in a muzzle is any kind of life either.

We're keeping our fingers crossed with the Prozac - will let you know!

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/13/2006 1:27:31 PM

In the case of dogs who nip as the person gets up or starts leaving, GSD's are probably the most common breed that has that modus operandi.
I think that the trial on Prozac shouldn't be considered a last resort. If you see no result, do consider consultation with a holistic veterinarian. I have seen some amazing results, and certainly, if there is a chance that this is vaccinosis, a holistic vet will be your best bet. If your vet did not take a *complete* thyroid panel, the values may be fine, but the thyroid could still be out of whack.
Unfortunately, Shepherds are among the dogs that bite most frequently. I think it's a combination of things - many of them are quite reactive (or, hypervigilant), have exaggerated predatory drive, are often undersocialized (what's ok for most other dogs isn't for the average Shepherd - they need to be exposed to everything that you want them to tolerate as adults on a thorough and ongoing basis, from puppyhood, at age 8 weeks through adulthood - even then, some of them will be big "weenies", which leads to fear bites) Some lines are quite stable, but in the US, often they aren't.
Again, if this doesn't make it, it might be worth it to try the holistic approach.

luvmyswissy

Posted : 10/13/2006 2:52:11 PM

This is not a suggestion just an obersvation from my personal expierence.

My dog is VERY food guarding. He is much better than he was way back when but just recently I was working some obdience and tricks with him and treats when my cat walked into the room. He went for her! He didn't attack or even make contact but he wasn't taking a chance she may come by his food.

Do you think maybe the key "set off" was the food?

Janey

Posted : 10/13/2006 4:09:05 PM

There is a holistic vet in our area - I'll contact her and find out how much she charges - I think she's quite pricey, but I'm willing to give her a shot.

Luvmyswissy - G. normally isn't very food guarding, but he will often herd the cat out of the kitchen when food is being prepared, (and not just food for him). I do wonder if the high value treat thing did backfire a little with him - our behaviorist said that textbook-wise, high value treats are the way to go with the type of desensitization we were doing, but that in the future we may want to try less appetizing treats. I did notice that he was very focused on the treats and was drooling, which he normally does not do...

nfowler

Posted : 10/14/2006 2:29:38 AM

I'm flipping paranoid after the summer of The Incident here in my house. And, quite frankly, I suffered ambivalent feelings about Murphy for the longest time after. Not that this is you at all, JaneyB, but if I came across too strong in my post, then you know that it's more about me and M than you and G. [

]

But, I reallly did. I didn't want "an aggressive dog" and here I am . . . but now I don't think he's aggressive. I've spent oodles of time on him--watching him, taking notes, figuring out his comfort zone (with other people and with me), figuring out his panic zone (within 6ft of his head/body), figuring out when he'll take treats, when he won't, what movements I can get away with around him, what ones I can't, what ones others outside (on walks) can get away with around him, what ones they can't, etc.

And just when things started settling down for me again and just when I stopped hating myself as MUCH as I have because I allowed The Incident to happen in the first place, I had my own little Incident with him.

He had hopped up on my bed and I went in and just snapped a "Off" to him and he didn't budge. I got closer to him and clapped my hands and said "Hey, Murphy, get off the bed" and he just stiffened up more. And then the Big One happened. I went to move him phyiscally (I was tired!) and he growled. Quietly, but he growled all the same. And I left my bedroom nearly in tears. It was like all of my work this past summer was for naught. It was like I had been told, again, how bad he was. I was pretty upset (and still very tired and not wanting to deal with it all right then).

And then I realized that I hadn't taught him "Off" at all. Ever. My word. I got out my clicker and some treats and away I went. Not a problem since. Whew.

Obviously, this has nothing to do with your original post, but the feelings behind these Incidents are all there and it can be tough to gear up for another lap around the track. At least it has been for me.

Let us know how things are going now! Things here are going better, but man . . . it's work!

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/14/2006 5:42:14 AM

nfowler, your post is soooo worth reading for anyone with a problem dog!!! Sometimes, we humans take a lot for granted - like the dog somehow knowing what "off" means before we actually teach it! "Off" and "no" and other words do not always mean what we think they mean to the dog. But, you handled this exactly the right way, by making sure that you immediately looked to yourself as the trainer for what went wrong, instead of assuming the dog had a clue. Bravo for you.

You could have adopted the dog-is-at-fault attitude and punished him, which, in this case, might have made things a whole lot worse. Instead, you explained what you wanted, and he is now obeying you - because it makes sense to him. No one likes to be shoved off the bed, but most people will get up and leave it if you tell them there's a wrinkle in the bedding that you want to smooth out, LOL. You may have to insist that a dog comply, but you have found a way to do it nicely!

nfowler

Posted : 10/14/2006 9:20:23 AM

You know, the funny thing is, I bumped into my more, how do I say it, forceful instructor and told him and I could tell, by his face, that he would not have recommended doing what I did. He would have wanted me to have grabbed his collar and forced him off. I could just see it in his face, though he kept quiet.

But Murphy is my disabled dog, and I'm not sure, to this day, that he was being "aggressive" with me by growling. I think he worries a lot about his body, where it's positioned, and about being hurt, and I couldn't see myself making it worse for him. I don't want to hurt him and I don't want to make him worry more than he's already spent his crappy life before me worrying--he came to me unsocialized and untrained and worried about Number One (himself and his disability) and I figured out, after I left the room in a panic, that he wasn't saying, "I'm the boss of your bed," he was saying, "I don't want to get down and I am afriad of your grabbing my collar." Truth be known, I'm not very physical with him, which was the catalyst for moving beyond that

hysical training we were in. Might be "fine" with a normal dog, but it's not OK with a disabled one and after The Incident, I needed to do more than just pull him around for the rest of his life.

So true, Anne, it can be that simple, and without really knowing your dog, and really wanting to know your dog, it can so easily turn. That could have been so darn ugly. Instead, he's happy to comply EVERY single time I ask him. His tail wags, he smiles, and it's over and done with.

That clicker is amazing. I wrote my instructor not long ago and told her that I'm learning to think differently and learning to see differently and that clicker has changed my life and also his.

I'm so happy. I'm a different person than the one who posted right after The Incident back in July.