HELP - Gandolf went after me!

nfowler:
 
Perfect example of "The dog doesn't speak english", lol.

You know what, snownose? As much as you'd think I'd know this, I get in the same boat where "good" dogs are concerned. Our society has it ingrained; a "good" dog

• Never ever bites, no matter what
  
• Never gets frustrated
  
• Never has an accident
  
• Never has a bad day
  
• Never mistakes you for someone else or vice versa
  
• Always knows what to do (even if he hasn't been trained)
  
• Understands his place

 
And this list goes on . . .
 
 

Nancy--I think you did the right thing but I'm not sure if Murphy didn't understand "off" that he could then think this. . .
 

"I don't want to get down and I am afriad of your grabbing my collar."

 
 

I'm doing some serious fall cleaning (cleaning windows, sills, tracks, and the house in general), so I'm on and off here periodically.
 
Lori, do you mean that maybe he was being aggressive? You know, he's never liked anybody touching his collar--sometimes I wonder if he ever wore one before. I've been doing the touch in exchange for treats with him since I got him. But, knowing Murphy like I do, he is really happy to be obedient. Really happy. Not just so-so about it, like Ellie, but happy--but only when he knows what I want him to do. If he doesn't know, then he gets all skittish.
 
He's happy to get off the bed, happy to move, happy to go into a crate, etc., but only if he knows what I want. I think that night he didn't know, and when Murph doesn't know, he panics and tries to run away, etc.
 
Anyway, any other insight you have I'm open! But of course.

ORIGINAL: JaneyB

Schleide - very good point about how potentially stressed G. may have been - the behaviorist indicated that if we do further desensitization that we muzzle him and let him move around a little, so he doesn't feel so restrained.  He could have really harmed me, and he didn't, so he may have been saying "I don't mean to do this, but you're really stressing me out!"

 
I'm sure he was stressed; I think it's how a dog handles stress that's important. I find it really worriesome that he didn't just nip once, but went after you multiple times. Also, it is good that he didn't break the skin, but honestly a lot of dogs need "practice" before they start doing damage. It seems to me like he's getting more aggressive since he went after the vet and also two people on the street. I really hope he's being walked with a muzzle now, for the safety of other people.
 
I'm sorry to be a negative nancy... I guess I just feel like the safety of people comes first and also there are so many non-aggressive dogs being put to sleep in shelters because of a lack of homes and I think they deserve a chance before the aggressive ones.
 
Anyway, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's obvious that you love Gandolf very much and I wish you the best of luck with this situation.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Nancy--I think you did the right thing but I'm not sure if Murphy didn't understand "off" that he could then think this. . .

"I don't want to get down and I am afriad of your grabbing my collar."

I suspect he could make the connection if, in the past, grabbing his collar meant bad things were about to happen.  That's classically what happens when someone keeps grabbing or otherwise "assaulting" the dog - some dogs just decide they've had enough and don't wish to have it happen again.  I'm not sure it's similar to a thought process that humans would have, but, rather, more of a knee-jerk reaction to being touched the same way that made the bad thing happen...and with a dog that has some physical issues, it could simply be a desire not to be moved, due to pain and not "dominance".

After knowing my Murph Man like I do, I think you're right, Anne. And because of this hijack (so sorry, JaneyB), I'm going to compose something about how much I love that clicker under Training sometime soon.

I spent today doing fall cleaning, inside and out and I'm dying now so I need a hot shower and an aspirin and will have post later (under Training). And poor Murphy is getting worse and tonight he laid down on our walk and would not get up until he felt rested up enough. I really want to "fix him up" soon and with my new-found knowledge on his behavoir, thanks to Patricia McConnell and her Cautious Canine, and my new-found joy of the clicker, thanks to posters like you and to my clicker class, I think he'll be worth the money and it will change his life.

Soon, Murphy, soon.

I just mean if he didn't know what "off" meant, why would he be thinking "I don't want to get down".  If that was what he was thinking to me anyway, it seems like he did know what "off" meant. 
 
As far as associating the collar and pain I completely understand that one.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I just mean if he didn't know what "off" meant, why would he be thinking "I don't want to get down".  If that was what he was thinking to me anyway, it seems like he did know what "off" meant. 

 
I thought the same thing.

Certainly I don't mean to defend his growling, and quite honestly, I'm no expert; I've never had a dog (of mine) growl at me ever before Murphy! What do I know? But, I do know that getting up and down and grabbing his collar are the "nervous" stressors for him. I used to let him jump into my SUV but it always took him some time (so does getting on the couch and on my bed). It's like he has to gear up for those jumps--and he does the same for getting down/out, too.
 
One day he slipped and slid under my SUV and after that I knew that I had to change things. He was still new and nervous but I started picking him up and it used to be this contest where he'd try and beat me to it; now, though, he's happy to be picked up. Now he lets other people pick him up, too, and I think it's because he knows it's safer for him than slipping. (And less painful, too.) He still tries to have a contest in the house where the bed is concerned.
 
Grabbing his collar makes him panic. He tries to run out of it and get away, or he tries to duck away--not so much as he used to, but especially now that Ellie is in recovery, he gets so worried about being put away that he panics. I'm sure that this collar = bad to him was his life before me. He is starting to understand that being "put away" for a few minutes is just that--only for a few minutes. He's really into being with me no matter where I am. I sometimes have bets (with him, if nothing else) as to how long he can stay in the living room if I leave and come down to my office. It's like one minute or less. He's never really relaxed that bit yet.
 
At any rate, he's really good to Drop It when I tell him, even a RMB, and he wags as he does it, and he's really good at "Off" now and he's really getting good at "Place," too. Amazing. I need more help with his socialization issues, but just getting the home mechanics and communicaiton in place has changed a lot between us.
 
But oh boy, he is a lot of work. A lot.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I just mean if he didn't know what "off" meant, why would he be thinking "I don't want to get down".  If that was what he was thinking to me anyway, it seems like he did know what "off" meant. 

As far as associating the collar and pain I completely understand that one.

I think we are not quite on the same page, Lori.  I think the dog knows what getting off of the couch means, but I suspect he did not understand that the cue to do that specific behavior was "off".  Until a dog makes the association between a cue word and an action, he doesn't understand that when the human says "off" he is to get off the couch, even if he understands the mechanics of doing so.  Was that clearer?

I understand what you said.  However, according to what Nancy wrote, he didn't understand "off" but he was thinking he didn't want to get down.  But, to me that means he was associating the word and the mechanics. 
 
Why would he be thinking, I don't want to get down, if he didn't know what off meant?  Wouldn't he just be sitting there looking at her with a blank stare? 

At the risk of making myself out to be some a-hole owner, I'll answer, mainly because I feel like I need to say something for Murphy--or for me. True enough, Lori, when I came back in with the clicker he was up and running around on the bed but not getting off. He was desperate for a treat but couldn't figure out how to get it and honestly, he was frustrated. I would point to the floor and say "Off" and he didn't do it. He was panting and excited and couldn't figure out what I wanted.
 
As to whatever happened on the bed, what I did (the a-hole part now) was to grab him and start to pull him off the bed by sliding him to the edge so he'd have no choice but to get off. I learned to be quite physical in my previous training class and I was tired and wanted it over with that night and I resorted to what I'd been taught. Ask then make it happen. And I'd already asked him more than once by this point so I was frustrated. 
 
He was on the edge anyway, and the more I clapped and barked "Get off the bed!" the more he stiffened up. He wasn't about to do "Off" by my words. I'd never said that to him before. I've never had to tell him to get "Off" because, of course, he follows me all over the house (just not that night). When I grabbed his collar, I began to make him slide across the edge of the bed and he growled. For whatever reason.
 
And, what I didn't type here because it seemed too much (and now I'm all embarrassed by typing and hogging this thread--argh, sorry everyone), was that I actually had to get Ellie to show him what I meant. I tried (making her Sit and Stay by me) without her, several times, and he was super excited and super clueless, and Ellie was wanting to get a click herself, so I let her show him. She got up there with him, I said, "Off" and she hopped down, I clicked and treated her. She did it twice for him and then he did it and he's done it ever since.
 
He's not the brightest bulb in the bunch--but it's only because I'm far from it myself! [] I mean, who grabs a disabled dog and slides them to the edge so they have no choice but jump down because they're about to fall off . . . oh yeah, a-hole owners like me! [:'(]

Nancy, I'll send you a PM cause like you said we are taking the thread over.

For the OP maybe you are doing the right thing so far but your dog had a "relapse", that does not mean is just gonna go down from here, i mean everybody here had fights with memebers or their family before but that does not mean we hate them since then right?, like they said before, the dog was in a situation of stress for more than just one cause

To help you understand a little bit more Cesar Millan talks about it :

What Makes a Dog “Red-Zone” Aggressive? “Red-zone” aggression is created by an extreme imbalance. A dog does not choose to be in the “red zone” because it does not exist in the animal world unless it is sick with a disease, like rabies. A good majority of the time, the behavior is caused by a traumatic experience humans may have inflicted upon the dog. If this is the case, the very least we can do is exhaust all methods in trying to restore the dog#%92s natural balance. I kept this in mind as I worked with Jonbee the Jindo, a “red-zone” case that had the good fortune of being rescued by Scott Lincoln, who thought his troubled, new dog could be rehabilitated and called me in to help. Unfortunately, a lot of owners listen to advice telling them to put “red-zone” cases to sleep. I don#%92t believe in putting a dog to sleep because his behavior has progressed into the “red zone” because I believe they can almost always be rehabilitated. Now that isn#%92t to say that these dogs aren#%92t dangerous – indeed they are and their behavior modification needs to be handled by professionals. Only if, after professional intervention and consultation, a “red-zone” dog is still a danger to humans or other dogs, and there is no safe place for the dog to be isolated, should euthanizing remain an option."