How Far Are You Willing to Go?

Killing an animal is truely the extreme end of "How far are you willing to go?", and definately has a place in this discussion.
 
Why an animal is killed  is also a good question. I see points being made when it comes to protecting livestock or killing a dog which has no resources available to it to live a life free of pain and loneliness. Death itself would seem a greater kindness than a miserable life in certain circumstances.
 
In the case of shelters with liability concerns and limited resources, sometimes hard decisions have to be made. Almost half of all dogs who end up in shelters are still being killed.
 
However, when you are dealing with a dog with aggression issues who is a beloved family member, I have a problem when a trainer who cannot help that dog, recommends that dog be put down before sending the dog and owner to another trainer who uses a different method and/or philosophy than they do.

However, when you are dealing with a dog with aggression issues who is a beloved family member, I have a problem when a trainer who cannot help that dog, recommends that dog be put down before sending the dog and owner to another trainer who uses a different method and/or philosophy than they do.

 
Well put. How far would one go? Euthanasia? A traditionalist? He who's name inspires WWIII?

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

I hate the idea of shooting dogs, too, but understand the times and places where an immediate quick end is necessary (suffering with no vet around, etc.)

In the case of these dogs deemed not suitable for their intended purpose... I got to thinking from the reverse side - pet dogs.  Dogs that are deemed not suitable for the intended purpose of pets in homes are often culled out of animal shelters/rescues every single day.  So, should THOSE dogs have been re-homed in some other way, as some are suggesting out of the dogs raised for hog hunting, and deemed not suitable?  How does the argument apply differently for hunting dogs, than for pet dogs?  Again, folks who come up with temperament tests are culling dogs deemed not suitable for pet homes right out of animal shelters...

Granted, those dogs were not RAISED for animal shelters - they just happened there.  But, I wondered what other people thought about this...

(and I've lived in areas where dogs trained for wild boar hunting was pretty common, so I understand the concepts and practices to get the dogs to hunt like that.)

Actually, in the more progressive shelters this does happen.  Dogs are taken by police bomb or incendiary detection units - dogs with very high drive that would make a pet home nuts, but will work till they drop.   Remember Neville, the Ontario Pit Bull who was rescued from BSL, sent to the U.S., and is now a police K-9 in Seattle?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Killing an animal is truely the extreme end of "How far are you willing to go?", and definately has a place in this discussion.

Why an animal is killed  is also a good question. I see points being made when it comes to protecting livestock or killing a dog which has no resources available to it to live a life free of pain and loneliness. Death itself would seem a greater kindness than a miserable life in certain circumstances.

In the case of shelters with liability concerns and limited resources, sometimes hard decisions have to be made. Almost half of all dogs who end up in shelters are still being killed.

However, when you are dealing with a dog with aggression issues who is a beloved family member, I have a problem when a trainer who cannot help that dog, recommends that dog be put down before sending the dog and owner to another trainer who uses a different method and/or philosophy than they do.

Who are the behaviorists and trainers you refer to?  No one I know who has the expertise to help a family that has an aggressive dog refuses to help them in some way.  What happens in the real world is that the family is given information on how the dog would need to be managed.  The question usually comes up about whether we can "cure" the dog.  And, unless the problem is purely medical, the simple answer is that we can often train, manage, and medicate - but aggression is never completely gone.  The owners are the ones who choose whether to euthanize.  Sadly, many dogs are PTS that could have led a good quality of life, but others are kept alive and end up biting someone, not because the trainer or behaviorist didn't give the right advice, but because the owner couldn't or wouldn't take it.  This is a more complex issue than whether CM could have cured the last chance dog or not.  And, it is more complex than whether a client is told that the chance of recurrence is great.  Past behavior is a predictor of future behavior, like it or not, and owners who pull the wool over their own eyes are often to blame for the result.  We often recommend a visit to a vet behaviorist for those dogs who seem to need it.  Later, we often find that the family didn't want to spend any more money, or they gave up after the first drug trial, or they went ahead and euth'd the dog. 
Unfortunately, part of being a good trainer, or behaviorist, is to assess the family's ability to train or manage the dog in question.  Those decisions aren't easy either...

Well, Anne, speaking from the people I dealt with around here.  It's when they don't have the expertise but have too big of an ego to admit it.  And, instead of recommending someone else they recommend the dog be put down.  That happend to Willow. 

Also, they don't teach you dog psychology, pack leadership, etc.  They teach you how to get the dog to do commands.  That's great, but with an aggressive dog you need knowledge of both, strong knowledge of dog mentality, IMHO. Especially with an aggressive dog, regardless of where that aggression comes from.  With dogs that are not such a worry one might be able to get away with only training and no knowledge of dog psychology.

How many people here come one and say things like, "my dog is showing his teeth and growling at me", "I don't understand this, we took him to classes".   That's because the classes didn't teach dog psychology or leadership. 

You can say CM is too rough or whatever you'd like to say but as I said before his show is not worthless regarding pack mentality, leadership, when to show affection, when not to, etc.

Or, they might know what to do but don't want to risk possibly getting bit so they don't want to deal with it.  That's one thing I do like about CM, he's not afraid. 

Honestly, I don't get how people who recommend NILIF can have an issue with the dog psychology that CM speaks of.  CM does a great job of explaining how NILIF works. He never usues that term but that is what he's doing. 
 

Actually, in the more progressive shelters this does happen.

 
Yes, and only rarely.  A Dobe from the rescue my dog came from ended up on a Navy ship with a job he was made for.  However, we all can surely agree these are not nearly as common as the alternative. 

Why not get back OT and tell us how far you are willing to go in training your own dog.  

 
umm, i pretty much already said this, but not very far. we have never been physical with berserker, and he has never had any proper training. the closest i've come to disciplining my dog is when he gets obnoxious while walking, i will pull up on his leash enough to let him know he isnt allowed to drag me down the sidewalk or up into peoples lawns. either he is fortunate enough to have very understanding people, or we are fortunate enough to have a very easy dog, my guess is both. he isnt out of control, he only does his business outside, he knows to sit without being told, he's never shown any aggression towards strangers or children, he's a good boy, so i just let him be himself. he can and does take advantage of me, but he knows im the only one he gets away with stuff with, so it isnt a problem. i would never dream of disciplining him, especially with any force, but that has never been necassary with him, a more stubborn or large or aggressive dog would be another situation.

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

Actually, in the more progressive shelters this does happen.

Yes, and only rarely.  A Dobe from the rescue my dog came from ended up on a Navy ship with a job he was made for.  However, we all can surely agree these are not nearly as common as the alternative. 

You are right, but a blanket indictment of all shelters is inaccurate, and more of them are trying to get creative about finding placements for dogs that are not appropriate for pet homes, but aren't aggressive either.