dog aggression-Please help

I see you are a strong believer that dogs genetics are how they'll turn out

I don#%92t believe genetics have any more influence than upbringing on a dog#%92s temperament, but I do believe they have some influence. I#%92ve taken every possible precaution with my dog – obedience, early neutering, socialization, etc… - and he#%92s never shown even a touch of aggression toward another dog. But I know, from researching the breed extensively, that could change at any time as he matures. And I know that most pits won#%92t dislike every dog, but there will be some dogs that ‘trip their trigger#%92.

I know pit bulls that are therapy dogs.. Now and days pitbulls are breed for compainonships, not fighting. I mean ya there are some jackasses that still fight them, whihc i think is cruel. Those dogs will def. show aggression with another dog.

Pits make great therapy dogs. Their nature with people is wonderful. That doesn#%92t have a single thing to with dog-dog aggression though.

There are a few select responsible breeders out there that are attempting to breed dog aggression out of the breed. However, what has been bred into them from the beginning of the breed is not going to be bred out in a couple of generations. Not to mention, 95% of pits out there are not from responsible breeding. A pit mix is not from responsible breeding, if they were they wouldn#%92t be a mix.

You can#%92t set your dog up to fail by taking her to parks and daycare, because when some rowdy golden retriever starts a fight with your pit, and your pit does what comes naturally, guess who gets the blame? This breed doesn#%92t need any more bad press. That#%92s why most responsible pit owners are so adamant about things like this.

Please read the links I gave. They are written by people trying to save this breed by educating people to the realities of ownership.

This is a fact of life, and one that you are going to have to recognize, because your dog is already showing dog-dog aggression. You can manage this, but you are going to have to accept it first.

How come other breeds of dog fight over dominence?? Angel is fighting for alpha, not because she is aggressive with other dogs. You can fix that problem, It's not the breed that is making her this way. Like I said Angel is great with other dogs, besides precious and dogs that start a fight with her... I truthfully think the laws are bullshit about banning pits, because the press always points out a pitbull killing another dog or mauling a person. These kind of behaviors is because the owner trained them wrong, most likely to be a guard dog or they use them to fight like I said I am a firm believer, the dog will turn out the way you raise it, I wouldn't say ban a breed, ban bad owners. Right now I have a problem on my hand, that I have to fix and it will be done, because I have had alot of pits in my life and know their breed as companions. Oh and when I have took her to day care with me to work, she wasnt out with any dogs that would start a fight. We keep that well controlled when we have any dogs out playing with eachother. I had no worries their. I know Angel, I know how she is. Just like I know all my other dogs that arent pits or pit mixes. I'll look at that site to see what other people have to say though.

glenmar its okay if you agree with sooner, everybody has their own opinions about dogs and how they'll turn out to be. you dont have to say sorry. lol

It's the old debate of genetics -vs- upbringing.

Nobody can actually PROVE one way or another. Some Pits are bad, others are not. The same as some GSD's are bad, others are not, some Cockers are bad others are not, etc, etc.

My personal BELIEF is that genetics play a role, but upbringing can have a profound effect that can outway genetics.

Example: Some people are born lacking parts or most of a certain fear gene. Now one person lacking this fear gene grows up in an abusive family, the other in a nurturing family.
Person A (abusive upbringing) grows up to become a very aggressive, violent person and does some horrible things. Person B (Nurturing upbringing) grows up to be a firefighter, skydiver, etc.

They both have the gene (or lack of), but their upbringing has had the most influential effect on how they eventually turn out.

It's my BELIEF that 95% of dog owners take too lightly exactly what their responsibilty is to their animals, and how much energy and time MUST go into raising a well-balanced dog.

As Dr. Ian Dunbar has said, there are many ways to train a dog. It really comes down to effectiveness, whether the dog is learning or not. And though we may not approve of others methods, we should just agree to disagree and further work towards what works, not our own personal preference (not verbatim).

I would think it would be so much easier to blame myself for my dog's aggression then genetic. 
 
If that were the case I could just slap myself on the wrist, reveres what I did and have a nice friendly happy healthy dog.  Unfortunately she was born with a million health problems due to poor breeding, her puppy hood was filled with pain and although she had surgery to fix some of it she will always live with some pain.  It was because of her birth defects that she took the pain out on other dogs and became aggressive towards them.  It really had nothing to do with aggressive traits breed into her, it was more she had gotten the wrong end of the gene pool and because of that it affected the way she interacted with other dogs creating a problem that later lead to aggression.
 
She is the first fear based aggressive dog I have ever owned and I have done my best to calm her aggression.  I know for a fact that the aggression will never go away so it is my responsibility to manage her behavior so the aggression does not get out of hand.  There is a crucial time in a puppies development that if not socialized during that time frame the dog will never develop those skills needed as an adult.  It's basic dog psychology.  So for aggression you can not “fix” it, you can only make it controllable.

 

What I am saying is that it is possible to indirectly breed aggression.  The traits themselves may not be the cause of the aggression but because of certain defects due to breeding, the dog may not be physically able to make the connection that allows them to function normally thus creating aggression.

Sporting breeds need to run a lot because they were bred to hunt all day long.
Sighthounds cannot be trusted off lead because they have been bred to spot prey from far away and run like the wind to find it.
All terriers were bred to kill vermin or something, and so tend to have intense prey drives.

Just as you would never ask an irish setter to stop needing exercise, it's really important to understand that your pit was bred to fight other dogs and take responsibility for that tendency. It's not that your dog is bad, it's just what pits do. Not taking responsibility for this tendency in your dog can wind up in tragedy for you. One of your other dogs could die if left unattended when you're out. Your dog could hurt another dog very badly in a dog run. There is no reason for this--please read Sooner's links.

You are asking your dog to become what you want her to be, which is admirable but it's not going to happen.

The nature/nurture argument goes on in the human species as well.  And I do believe that it is a combination of BOTH that determine the complete package.  But nurture can ONLY go so far to overcome nature.
 
animal-lover33 you are fooling yourself badly that you know Angel so well and know that she is ONLY fighting for dominance.  I myself have six dogs so I know what living with a pack is like.  We don't have these kinds of fights in our house.  And honestly, with the girls, it's more often about hormones and "bitchy" attitudes or a wild hair up their arses than it is about dominance or position.  Add in an owner in total denial and there will be some major heartbreak down the road.
 
As I said, sometimes you can't FIX a problem and just have to manage it the best you can.

THe least you could do is read sooners links and arm yourself with information.  I think you will need to be on guard and not allow this dog alone with the others without supervision.  The dog-dog agression has been bred into the breed.  It is an awesome breed when the owner takes the necessary precautions and puts the necessary training into them.  Please don't be in denial.  Educate yourself...the day  you stop learning or choose not to educate yourself because of your own who are you to tell me attittude is a sad day.  We can all learn daily and educating ourselves about our dogs can only help to make us better owners.  Granted I have never owned a pit or pit cross but I have had terriers and a Rott.  Terriers and Rotts require a lot of time and patients.  Rotts are considered a bad breed do to all those out there who trained theirs wrong.  I wanted to make my Rott an outstanding example of the breed which I did.

ORIGINAL: animal_lover33

How come other breeds of dog fight over dominence?? Angel is fighting for alpha, not because she is aggressive with other dogs. You can fix that problem, It's not the breed that is making her this way. Like I said Angel is great with other dogs, besides precious and dogs that start a fight with her... I truthfully think the laws are bullshit about banning pits, because the press always points out a pitbull killing another dog or mauling a person. These kind of behaviors is because the owner trained them wrong, most likely to be a guard dog or they use them to fight like I said I am a firm believer, the dog will turn out the way you raise it, I wouldn't say ban a breed, ban bad owners. Right now I have a problem on my hand, that I have to fix and it will be done, because I have had alot of pits in my life and know their breed as companions. Oh and when I have took her to day care with me to work, she wasnt out with any dogs that would start a fight. We keep that well controlled when we have any dogs out playing with eachother. I had no worries their. I know Angel, I know how she is. Just like I know all my other dogs that arent pits or pit mixes. I'll look at that site to see what other people have to say though.

I#%92m not by any means saying that pits are the only breed that have dog aggression problems, they#%92re just the only breed that you can be virtually certain they will have problems with some other dogs. Not every other dog, but some of them. Angel#%92s problems may not be rooted in her breed, but when I see pit or pit mix and dog aggression in a post it raises a huge red flag, because it#%92s so common. You don#%92t have to believe me, but I hope you read those links.

I#%92m just trying to help you to recognize what may be one of the roots of your problem. Once you recognize that, you can work on it and work on managing it, but you can#%92t “fix” it. You may have to implement a crate-and-rotate schedule (talked about on one of the links I gave). You will also have to feed them out of sight of each other.

I agree that BSL is crap. But that has nothing to do with what we#%92re talking about. I#%92m talking about people educating themselves so that they don#%92t put their dogs in a position where they are able to hurt people or other dogs. Because that is nothing but fuel for the fire for BSL. No matter what actually happened the pit always gets blamed and this breed doesn#%92t need more incidents contributing to their bad name.

As for “knowing your dog”; read on the pit bull forum about all the people knew their dog until a fight broke out one day. Several people who left their dogs out together came home to a dead dog – even though the dogs had always been great together before. These aren#%92t dog fighters or bad owners; they#%92re people just like you who weren#%92t educated beforehand on the possibilities. The difference between them and you is that your dog is giving you the warning signs; you just have to acknowledge them.

“Right now I have a problem on my hand, that I have to fix and it will be done,”

No it won#%92t be done. It will always be there, and you are deluding yourself to think otherwise. You will be putting your dogs in harm#%92s way if you continue to think this.

For those really interested in the Nature vs Nurture debate, I'd encourage you to read a book called Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog by Fuller and Scott.  This was first published in 1965 and has been republished thanks to demand.  It reads like a text book, but if you can get  beyond that, it is fasinating.  All animals are a combinaiton of its genetics and upbringing. 
 
Now, as far as the OP, why not just feed this dog in another room where she can't see other dogs being fed?

sorry, animal_lover, but I'm also going to have to echo what everyone's saying.  When we got our pitbull puppy, we made sure to socialize her early and frequently.  We were very wary at first because we knew, quite simply, that her breed has a tendancy towards dog-aggression.  We were delighted to find that she in fact loves the company of other dogs, and generally gets along with them very well.  That doesn't change the fact that my boyfriend's parents dog DOESN'T like other dogs, and when this 120lb belgium shephard turned on my little baby, my dog had no intention of backing down, and had there been no humans to intervene, I would have had a dead puppy.  Had the roles been reveresed and my dog been the physically stronger, the other dog would have been dead.  She's been around that dog a few more times, and they are starting to get along, but I know that they need to be constantly supervised when together.
 
Knowing this, when I get a second dog (and I will, because my dog really does enjoy the company of other dogs), I will purposely seek out a dog that has been temperment tested and is naturally submissive.  Bringing another dominant dog into the house would be nuts, because it would lead to a deadly fight.  I will also firmly establish pack order.  I won't get a second dog until my dog is an adult and the second dog will be a puppy so that this pack order can be more easily imprinted on the second dog.  I will monitor them closely for quite a long time before I even think of leaving them alone together.  I know from experience with friends' dogs that pitbulls CAN live happily with other dogs (even other pitbulls!), and that most naturally do not go out of their way to start fights.  They do naturally finish fights, though, and any pitbull owner who wants to have multiple dogs needs to go out of their way to make sure fights just don't happen.  Also, any time two alpha-type dogs, regardless of breed, live together, the owner needs to take precautions... two chiuahuas can kill eachother as easily as two pitbulls.  Your dogs may be able to get along again with a lot of work on your part, or they may just need to be kept separate.  Only time will tell with that, but please don't be in denial about the dangers that are involved here... you're not doing yourself or your dogs any favors.

I just have to get back to this

They cant be in the room together. Any advice to this because these dog fights need to stop, I don't want their to be another vet visit. Right now for this I have one dog on a lease and my boyfriend has the other dog on a leash and we make them go around eachother and when one of them gives the other the look, we samit them.

because I think Bourbon made a GREAT point

So they're learning that when they're around each other this bad thing happens. I can't imagine how that is going to make them calm down around each other

Forcing the dog down may appear to work after the magic of tv editing but it's not a good real-life solution.

ORIGINAL: sooner
Forcing the dog down may appear to work after the magic of tv editing but it's not a good real-life solution.

 
I agree!!  My boyfriend and I had agreed NOT to do this with our dog, but out of frustration one day when she was in the height of her adolecent "I don't care what you say" faze, he tried it with her.  She's a very dominant dog, and for the next few days she was highly suspicious and distrusful of him rather than becoming submissive and respectful.  It might work with dogs that already have submissive tendancies, but to a dominant dog it sends the message that you are challenging the dog, not being a natural leader.  Do it enough times, and you might get bitten.

ORIGINAL: animal_lover33

I know what they are capable of doing, but I dont think a pit will fight any dog that walks by it if it has fought before.. I see you are a strong believer that dogs genetics are how they'll turn out., but I dont because you could train a dog to do anything. I know pit bulls that are therapy dogs.. Now and days pitbulls are breed for compainonships, not fighting. I mean ya there are some jackasses that still fight them, whihc i think is cruel. Those dogs will def. show aggression with another dog. I understand you saying that all dogs need to be well socialized with dogs and with people, I totally agree with you on that.I dont take Angel to a park that much, because I respect that some people are really scared of a pit or pitmix, but i'm just saying Angel could play with a less dominent dog. I worked at a doggy day care/boarding/training place and have took Angel with me. There were certain dogs she could play with and certain dogs she couldnt. All of our dogs are watched when they are not in their crates, when we take them outside, one person has to go out with them because they bark, but I would give that advice to anybody.

People are surprised every day when that little Pitty "switch" goes off.  I know Pits that are therapy dogs, and wonderful pets, but I also know Pits that used to play nicely with other dogs, then suddenly one day turn to attack their playmates. It is a genetic characteristic, and stronger in some lines than others, but you cannot discount that these are dogs that, for quite some time, were bred to fight.  It is certainly helpful for these dogs to be raised correctly, and it does minimize the possibility of their getting into trouble, but if you think that it is only how you raise them that predicts whether they will become dog aggressive, you are sadly mistaken.  Many of us on this board, whether we own Pits or not, defend this breed, and we don't disparage it.  But, we also realize the potential for disaster when owners refuse to recognize that part of their heritage that may make them unsuitable as dog park playmates.

I also think you and your BF are playing with fire when you make these dogs circle one another and "samitt" them, whatever that is.
You should be getting some advice from a legitimate professional behaviorist.