why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

The same could be said for you  richard.  You seem totally unwilling to listen to any of our ideas, negating +R as nothing more than treat dispensing bribery.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

You know, espencer, every time you post, you absolutely scream ignorance about the method you criticise. 

Please do yourself and others, who really want to learn about how dogs learn, a favor and start reading some serious texts on the issue, attend a few seminars where you can see the principles in action, and train a dog yourself using the methods, before you criticize something that you neither understand nor practice.

Ok fair enough, the funny thing is that ALSO applies to you and CM methods, so lets do ourselves a favor and UNTILL you dont scream ignorance about CM methods i wont stop talking what do i think about +R, so go, try some behaviorists methods, understand them, attend a few seminars where you can see the principles in action and and train a dog yourself using the behaviorists methods and the day you stop screaming ignorance about those techniques that same day i will stop doing the same about yours, do we have an agreement????  but dont come up saying you already did becuse is CLEARLY that you didnt, if so then lets just keep being ignorant about eachother techniques and thats it, which one should we do?

You never really listen to a thing I type.  Did you even ask me if I have read CM's book? Did you ask if I have tried some of his methods?  No, you simply assume that because I reject them now that I never used any of them.  He did not invent those methods - they've been around for decades.  The only difference is that I have changed my training methods over the years, as I've become better educated and seen the more impressive results I have gotten.
By the way, have you ever considered going to work for CM?  You certainly spend enough time trying to "sell" him - maybe you should be collecting a reward for your efforts.

The same could be said for you  richard.  You seem totally unwilling to listen to any of our ideas, negating +R as nothing more than treat dispensing bribery.

That's not true--Richard is actively clicker training his dogs right now.

Since this seems to be getting old, maybe all you CM fans should go over to Training: Everything Else and answer Xeph's question about how you think that CM would train the dumbbell retrieve.  At least there you can support an actual protocol from his repertoire for training a behavior.  

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
You never really listen to a thing I type.  Did you even ask me if I have read CM's book? Did you ask if I have tried some of his methods?  No, you simply assume that because I reject them now that I never used any of them.  He did not invent those methods - they've been around for decades.  The only difference is that I have changed my training methods over the years, as I've become better educated and seen the more impressive results I have gotten.
By the way, have you ever considered going to work for CM?  You certainly spend enough time trying to "sell" him - maybe you should be collecting a reward for your efforts.

OK  i would be happy to hear your conclusions and experiences of the times you applied behaviorists techniques, what happened? did it work for you? if not, why? did you do a follow up to realize if it worked or not? what made you decided you didnt like that method AFTER you tried it?. Now the question would be: did you do it in the right way? because maybe you tried but did it wrong, i dont know, you tell me

And then since i didnt ask i think i will do now? Did you read the book? How Cesar crossed the border? air, train, car, swimming across the river? what it was his first job in USA? i could ask about his techniques but you dont need to read the book to know what is says, since those methods existed before i would not be sure if you read it or not, only asking specific things about his life that come in the book i would be able to know if you really read it or not

How would you treat an aggressive with +R? or would you just rather to recommend to be put to sleep and not to put up with it?

Please answer every SINGLE question, i'm not as experienced as you and i would like you to teach me []

pumaward:

Let's agree that a treat can be anything, praise, love, body contact in a loving way...........body massage.........it doesn't have to come out of a bag.......................eh?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Since this seems to be getting old, maybe all you CM fans should go over to Training: Everything Else and answer Xeph's question about how you think that CM would train the dumbbell retrieve.  At least there you can support an actual protocol from his repertoire for training a behavior.  

I went and gave an answer in that thread.

Regarding the last sentence in the above post..... It might just be a semantics thing but I consider behavior different than training. Maybe the distinction I make is Behaviorists as opposed to Trainers. To me a Behaviorist deals with behavioral problems whereas a Trainer teaches obediance (unless of course you are talking about agility or working but that's a differant matter). I know there is a bit of a crossover and similar issues can be delt with but that is the distiction in my mind.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin


Regarding the last sentence in the above post..... It might just be a semantics thing but I consider behavior different than training. Maybe the distinction I make is Behaviorists as opposed to Trainers. To me a Behaviorist deals with behavioral problems whereas a Trainer teaches obediance (unless of course you are talking about agility or working but that's a differant matter). I know there is a bit of a crossover and similar issues can be delt with but that is the distiction in my mind.

In my mind, training is influencing behaviour. Behaviourists should be damn good at it because they specialise in behaviour and should understand why it occurs. Understanding why is the first step towards knowing what to do to influence it. Behaviour and training are different, but only in that one is an offshoot of the other. The better you understand behaviour, the better a trainer you will be. One would hope.

ORIGINAL: corvus

The better you understand behaviour, the better a trainer you will be. One would hope.

 
Excellent point!

So why then is CM somehow above training a dog to do a specific behavior in the thread Xeph started over in Training?

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

So why then is CM somehow above training a dog to do a specific behavior in the thread Xeph started over in Training?

 
Because retreive is not an "specific behavior" it is a specific exercise and thats an area that Behaviorists dont work with, just like asking a math teacher to show a kid how to build a chair, thats a job for the carpentry teacher, both are teachers but work in different areas []

Because retreive is not an "specific behavior" it is a specific exercise and thats an area that Behaviorists dont work with

 
No not really. A trainer trains without particular concern for why a dog exhibits a certain behavior. A behaviorist seeks to understand why the dog has certain behaviors and it's motivational factors so that the best method of training can be employed. Suzanne Clothier is a behaviorist. By understanding the dog she is able to train with very impressive results. Training without understanding behavior has far more limitations upon the results. It is extremely difficult to attain very advanced skills without a behavioral approach.

Mudpuppy, I think leadership does have to do with training. Alpha does not and the two words shouldn't be interchanged.
 
My alpha female also does not lead. She really doesn't give a hoot what the other two dogs do as long as it doesn't bother her. In my mind good training is part of leadership. A leader teaches, sets standards and guidelines, inspires others to follow without coercion or fear, and generally has others clamoring for more. It seems you fit these criteria--but of course that's just my opinion.

espencer, I read the book.  To me, it was not an impressively written treatise on either behavior or training.  While he makes some valid points, his treatment of many issues is simplistic.
By the way, have you read Steven Lindsay's three volume textbook on dog behavior?  Very interesting, complete with scientific citations.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

espencer, I read the book.  To me, it was not an impressively written treatise on either behavior or training.  While he makes some valid points, his treatment of many issues is simplistic.
By the way, have you read Steven Lindsay's three volume textbook on dog behavior?  Very interesting, complete with scientific citations.

No i havent but thanks for the recomendation, i would have to look for it []