why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Because retreive is not an "specific behavior" it is a specific exercise and thats an area that Behaviorists dont work with

Suzanne Clothier is a behaviorist. By understanding the dog she is able to train with very impressive results. Training without understanding behavior has far more limitations upon the results. It is extremely difficult to attain very advanced skills without a behavioral approach.

That's just the point I was trying to make. [] Perhaps CM doesn't train things like retrieve because he prefers to specialise, just as a psychologist chooses to specialise, however, that doesn't mean it's not his 'job' to train retrieve or that somehow he wouldn't know where to start. Behaviour and training go hand in hand because they both effect each other very strongly. If I met a behaviourist who didn't know how they would approach that kind of training, then I wouldn't want them anywhere near my dog. By neccessity, you have to understand both when you're dealing with dogs in a human world. You have to know why they behave that way and you have to know how to modify it. Otherwise, you really aren't doing your job, are you? That's behaviour and training right there, hand in hand.

Having said that, the right answer is not always obvious and the wrong answer can still get the job done. It amazes me how people who seem to have no idea why a dog is really behaving a certain way can apply inappropriate methods and still get the results they were after more or less. Dogs are too easy on us!

pumaward:

Let's agree that a treat can be anything, praise, love, body contact in a loving way...........body massage.........it doesn't have to come out of a bag.......................eh?

I agree. Notice I said treat, not food. Anything can be a "treat."

Unfortunately, some dogs are not motivated by praise, love, etc. Not all dogs are the "golden retriever type".  My pup is one of them. Food and tug-of-war are her motivations... Without them, I'd still be trying to teach her a basic ten second stay in the hallway (minimal distraction area). I most certainly wouldn't get any kind of recall outside because that spot on the pavement is far more interesting than my best "GOOD GIRL!" and body massage.

I do vary my rewards and I don't dish them out left and right. For outside, a successful retrieve is rewarded with a game of chase. Successful recall rewards may be anything from food to tug to a walk in the woods. However, I am still working heavily upon these examples, so they are rewarded quite often. Downs and sits are not rewarded all that often; just enough to keep her playing the lottery.
 
BTW, my food rewards come out of a pan and tupper-ware because I make them myself. Believe it or not, she doesn't sit there everytime I open the oven or glad-ware waiting for a treat.

I think that if the dog doesn't respect you and your control of resources, it doesn't care much about your opinion.  There is no reason to get your approval.  No motivation to do what you want.  It's just that simple.

Richard, I was waiting for your input. 

A discussion between a bunch or people who's minds are already made up is pretty useless. You all might as well be discussing politics or religion for as much good as it is going to do.

Sometimes there is very little respect, here, for others opinions, theories and methods.  This thread started with a simple statement, people.  Why are we attacking each other?

Believe it or not, she doesn't sit there everytime I open the oven or glad-ware waiting for a treat.

But even if she did,why would that be a bad thing?

My dogs know the crinkly sound their favourite treat pack makes and come running whenever they hear it,isnt that to be expected?Sometimes i'll give them one,other times i wont.And guess what,most times they even go through the door before me [sm=eek.gif]

My dogs are above all my friends and companions,i dont try and read too much into what they do and think,i cant speak dog any better than they can speak human.

We should all agree that physical punishment,pain,zapping/electrofying,yanking,pushing,shoving,stand over tactics,bullying/alpha playing should have no place in our dogs lives,and if any of these tactics are being used than the owner should take a long,hard look at themselves and perhaps aknlowledge that the training they are using isnt working if they have to resort to any of the above.
Having a dog is special gift IMHO,and is a relationship that should be treated with the utmost respect,love and trust.

"It amazes me how people who seem to have no idea why a dog is really behaving a certain way can apply inappropriate methods and still get the results they were after more or less. Dogs are too easy on us!"

The biggest thing I've gotten from reading dog books was to look at my dogs as individuals with different motivations and skills. I would place that as a form of leadership.  Tasha is very intelligent and curious, Wolfgang is extremely socially adept and Floyd is very willing to please and affectionate.
 
Tasha's first trainer used only food as a reward. Tasha was consistently in the lower half of the classes, and the trainer basically said that it was because she was half Chow and that's all we could expect. Tasha had a good time at classes and certainly didn't develop any emotional issues...but she didn't develop a solid recall either. A behavioralist would have noticed that she was always trying to start a play session and worked with that. With a variety of different rewards and fewer repetitions (she's easily bored), she quickly gained the skill.
 
So a trainer can get a certain amount of desired behavior just by using the same old formula on every dog, but it takes a behaviorist to understand and motivate to higher level skills. My preference for rewards based training is that when the dog is misunderstood and it is the wrong reward such as in Tasha's case, it does no harm to the dog psychologically. If the dog is misread with an aversion based training system, it can cause permanent damage. And no one reads a dog correctly 100 percent of the time except maybe Dr. Doolittle.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Stacita

So a trainer can get a certain amount of desired behavior just by using the same old formula on every dog, but it takes a behaviorist to understand and motivate to higher level skills.

A good behaviourist! []

You're quite right. I just wish more people took the time and effort to understand their dogs and work out how best to keep their dog engaged during training.