spiritdogs
Posted : 10/8/2006 12:54:00 PM
You know, espencer, every time you post, you absolutely scream ignorance about the method you criticise. fisher's dogs pee immediately because they learned it was a behavior that got them a reward. I am sure that fisher does not have to take treats outside every day *now* to make them pee. The reason I know that is that I did the same thing with my dogs. My dogs now pee and poop on command, and right away, without treats. (but, evvvvery once in a while, I pull one out and deliver it as a reward - why? intermittent reinforcement keeps behavior happening - but also because, unlike many people, I like to "catch them doing something right" instead of waiting to correct them if they're wrong - just a difference in philosophy about leadership). Peeing on command comes in very handy when I need them to be "empty" before entering a nursing home, or when I am headed for a training session in someone else's training facility, or when it's 5 degrees and snowing outside. So, even though they do it every day, on those "special" occasions, I might choose to remind them how very grateful I am that they are so good - with liver, a toy, or a pat.
Dogs, given a choice between a pat on the head, verbal praise, or roast beef, would likely choose the roast beef. The point is not bribery, which you seem to want to persist in making it. It's that if you are teaching a difficult behavior, or a chained behavior, it makes some sense to provide a reinforcer that the dog will be willing to work for even in the face of difficulty or distraction. It's *temporary*, just a way to communicate "yes".
The reason you can't get off the treats thing is that you don't truly understand this training process. It really is not about food - it's about finding something that the dog wishes to work for, and using it as a reinforcement for correct behaviors
during the learning process. It is *not* about having to reward your dog with food for every single behavior for his whole life. I feel like, were it a few hundred years ago, you would be arguing with me that the world is flat because that's all you can see, and evidence to the contrary, you only believe that which is in your personal realm of experience. Please do yourself and others, who really want to learn about how dogs learn, a favor and start reading some serious texts on the issue, attend a few seminars where you can see the principles in action, and train a dog yourself using the methods, before you criticize something that you neither understand nor practice.