why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Nope, haven't quite made it to senile yet.  Food/treat dispensing, butler and roommate, but not senile.....

I firmly believe that leadership has EVERYTHING to do with training.

Hear Hear!!!!

In the OP, Mudpuppy thought the use or idea of leader is wrong. Since her dogs do doggy things regardless of her being the human caregiver, she doesn't see the need to be alpha or lead.
 
IMHO, expecting certain behaviors, even if earned with a reward, is leadership. I lead my dog away from the ill-behaved, untrained, loose dog, if possible. I lead my dog away from traffic. I lead him to release the kitty. Sometimes, there's a leash, sometimes there's a command. I don't expect him to read my mind, so I give commands, I lead. Sometimes, we lead him outside with a piece of cheese or meat.
 
Lead, such a beautiful word, love it, adore it, become one with it. And alpha, too, I like that one, though there has been some debate on how useful it is. At least it gives us a chance to speak greek. Dogs may or may not choose to follow your lead, but lead you must, or they will. Some dogs won't lead. They will always look to a human or alpha dog. Someone will lead, someone will follow. Lead, it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.
 

ORIGINAL: espencer


Well i dont think there is one single training method that smacks the dog, i said "grounding" not "smacking", so dont take it to a higher level that i've never talked about, so again "is my father a bully because he is upset that i did something wrong?" should  my father stop teaching me right from wrong because i find it anoying? who said something about smacking a dog in this thread? who said something about physical violence? we spoke about corrections which are WAY more different

The difference here is that dogs are not capable of the same understanding of 'right' and 'wrong' that children are. They're about on the level of a 2 year old child. I don't have kids, but I frankly think that it's a bit much to expect a 2 year old to understand the complexities of their behaviour and why it's right or wrong. You teach them to say please and thank you and you teach them that temper tantrums don't get them anywhere and you teach them that they sit down if they want to eat or drink something, but do you jerk them around if they don't get it right every time? If I did have children, I'd hold them to the same standards I hold my dog to, but equally, I wouldn't grab them and force them into a chair every time they failed to sit still when they had food in their hands. It's true, dogs don't understand English, therefore, why should we expect them to put up with being pushed around for reasons they can't understand? How would I feel if someone speaking a language I couldn't understand taught me the language by pushing me into a chair when they said sit, forcing me to lie on a bed when they said lie down, pulling me close when they said walk close to me? It would be confusing and I'd feel a little violated. I don't see why we should do to a dog what we wouldn't want done to ourselves. That's why I'm moving into clicker training. Because I'd rather teach my dog human language gently and give him ample opportunity to work it out for himself. That's not to say there's no place for corrections, just that there's no need to correct in a manner that's upsetting to the dog unless he decides to throw a tantrum, in which case, I walk away, just like I would with a 2 year old.

I tend to think that training is more about comminication than leadership, but at the same time, I think the success of the communication is improved if you are a good leader. A dog can be the top dog, but still choose to do what you suggest if there's treats in it for him. However, maybe some day he won't feel like doing it and might think he doesn't have to because he's higher ranking than you. I also agree with Mudpuppy, though, in that it's pretty hard for a dog to be confused about it all if you're taking good care of them. Aside from controlling resources, if you are training in the first place, that's going to send a pretty loud and clear message to your dog about who's in charge.

but I frankly think that it's a bit much to expect a 2 year old to understand the complexities of their behaviour and why it's right or wrong.

 
When I was a toddler with my mom in a grocery store and was hollering and carrying on, she would try to hush me. When that didn't work, she would pop me on the mouth. One time, by accident, she had just the right angle and snap and busted my lip, which resulted in more crying on my part and blood spraying. Then she felt bad.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

And still no explanation why my crew follow me as their leader when I am treatless.........could it perhaps BE that I have in fact established myself as their leader, regardless of treats??????  Hmmmmmmmm.

Anne, just move over and make room for me in that treat dispensing roommate, butler corner please.

Well i wanted you to realize yourself but maybe you dont want to, if they follow you when you dont have treats is because they are hoping sooner or later you will take out one for them like saying "there is the treat dispenser, lets follow him to see if perhaps we did something "right" so he give us another one" just like when you ask yourself if the girls like Donald Trump because his money or because what he really is inside, could be still having beautiful wifes if he was poor? could you still be a leader if you were not using treats from now on?

I ground my dog... isn't grounding really just an extended time out? espencer, you can try to fool us into thinking you are some kind of +P zealot, but grounding is -R, or witholding access to desired thing... it's a tried-and-true positive reinforcement method. This is a lot less of an argument than you think it is maybe.

Corvus you are right on here.

If I want a person to respect me, then the first thing I do is treat them with respect, have a little empathy, understand the effect my actions and words have on them. Be considerate. And if I want someone to do as I ask, I do feel that I have a responsibility to communicate well.

I train my dog using -R/+R and not with corrections because I communicate better and more respectfully by controlling access to what my dog desires than I do by yanking and pushing and forcing.

And this is semantic... but the way I shape my dog's behavior and choices by controlling his access to what he wants is the very essence of leadership.

Leadership and dominance are two very different things.

ORIGINAL: ron2
When I was a toddler with my mom in a grocery store and was hollering and carrying on, she would try to hush me. When that didn't work, she would pop me on the mouth. One time, by accident, she had just the right angle and snap and busted my lip, which resulted in more crying on my part and blood spraying. Then she felt bad.

OUCH!!![sm=crazy.gif]

I'm thinking it is you who refuses to "get it".
 
My crew can go MONTHS without getting treats.  Dogs may have some recollections, but basically, dogs live in the here and now.  I doubt that they remember that 6 or 8 months earlier mom gave them treats for no particular reason other than I wanted to.  And, even frozen solid, homemade liver treats pack a powerful punch, so they are absolutely certain if I happen to be "carrying".
 
And yet, these poor deluded creatures follow me anywhere, do whatever I ask, KNOWING that "gosh darn, Mom doesn't smell like liver treats" but many she'll pull some out of her ear or something if we do what we are supposed to do.
 
Man, have I ever got them snowed!

Glenda and HoundLove--what? What did I say? You know me, Glenda--I'm a lot like you, and HoundLove, c'mon, anyone who knows me knows I LOVE hounds.
 
You both didn't mean your initial replies to me, I hope . . . []

Hmmmm, here's another stumper.
 
Several times each day I go out onto the front deck for 3 or 4 drags of a smokey treat.  Now often, anyone who is near the door is allowed to go out WITH me.  However, several times during the course of the day, especially if I'm going to be OFF the gated deck I simply say "not this time" and they will sit down and quietly wait for me to return.  Opening the door is a simple matter of giving it a push.  They don't.
 
So, in doing this are they hoping I'm off to get the secret stash of treats?  Or maybe, gasp, they are just obedient?

nfowler....HUH???  I just went back and looked and I can't find anyplace that I responded to you at all.

So true, Glenda! I don't use treats with Penny because she gets so excited when she knows I have something that all she wants to do is madly try all the behaviours she knows, hoping to hit on the right one and get the treat before I actually tell her what I want. She's so busy trying to do everything at once that she doesn't pay any attention to what I'm actually saying!

If there are no treats, she'll listen and do exactly what she's been taught to do for just a kind word and maybe a pat. That's not to say treats are a waste of time in the least, just that they're more trouble than help with this particular dog. Maybe I should use less exciting treats. Bits of rabbit food might do it for her. []

My dog gets deliriously excited every morning when we go for a walk. She gets deliriously excited when she gets her breakfast, and deliriously excited when she gets her dinner. Every day, we walk to the same places, give her maybe one of 2 things for breakfast, and she gets the same thing for dinner every night. How could she still find the same things every bit as exciting as she did the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that? I can only think that it must be awesome to be a dog and constantly be excited about the same nice things that happen to you as if they've never happened to you before.

Sure, they learn, however you choose to teach them. At least they especially like it when there's treats involved, though. It's a pretty good motivator to learn. That's why people use it. I learn a lot quicker when there are big rewards, too. Because it means I get more out of it. I'm yet to meet a dog who learnt with treats that expects a treat every time. They're a learning aid, a motivator to learn, not a bribe to perform. We know that and the dogs don't, because if they don't get a treat every time, they can't remember how often they do get them. And if they don't get them for a whole day, that's pretty much the same as not getting them for a year. Dogs don't have a good sense of time. []

Okay. I'm just paranoid because this thread has gotten, well, aggressive. At least nippy. That's okay. I'm such a fan of your insights and ideas anyway . . .
 
You know I am! []

Uh oh!  Watch out....you're gonna get called names too if you keep that up.  Like treat dispensing butler/roommate.[]

ORIGINAL: fisher6000 
Leadership and dominance are two very different things.

That depends on what school of thought you subscribe to. A leader does not simply control resources, but leads and directs the activities of the group as a whole for the survival of all.

Higher social animals do nothing without first sorting out who is who and where do "I" fit in. It is the first thing they do before the can function together as a cohesive group.

Read any research paper by a scientist who studies social animals in the field, and you will learn the correct use of these terms in a scientific context...or watch Meerkat Manor on Animal Planet, and you will hear the same thing.

The "leader" of  a social group of animals is referred to as the "alpha" or "dominant" member of the group. These animals are born to this position because of their naturally inheirited "dominant" traits.

Dominant and submissive behaviors are also a form of communication between social animals within the group. If my behavior is "dominant", I am communicating that "I" am the leader of the group. If "your" behavior is "submissive", you are communicating that you recognise my position as "leader". Simple as that.

Dominance is both a natural born "group/pack/social" position and a form of communication of that position...as is submissive and subordinant behavior.

Problems in understanding this concept arise when humans bypass the appropriate scientific use of these words by equating "dominance" with frustration, anger, and "Kitten With a Whip" imagery.