why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    Kill 'em but don't correct 'em? Are you serious?

    I don't even know where to begin.

     
    Amen! There's a lot of dramatic comments being posted on this thread! Some of the training and behaviour threads here seem to start out interesting but quickly degrade into personal attacks....
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    So, espencer, you're saying that my sons and my dogs obey me and do what I request because they see me as a ROOMMATE?  Do they fear that I won't wait on them by feeding them if they irritate me?  They certainly aren't going to see me throw a tantrum if I don't get my own way, so kindly explain to me, what IS their motivation for obeying and PLEASING me?


    Well i was never talking about you sons just about your dogs (which of course are not the same and not because you sons see you as leader that means the dogs will) for humans the parents represent authority because thats the way the society teaches the concept (even like that i know some people who dont see their parents as leaders of the house but just roomates ready to clean the house but thats another topic and i'm sure thats not your case)

    For dogs is different, they follow confident leaders, if they feel that one of them is more confident than you then they will pick that dog as leader

    If you were in jail would you consider the guy who brings you the food and opens your cell for you to go to the patio as your leader?

    For sure their motivation is food so they will know that every time they do something you liked then you aka "cookie dispenser" will handle a treat, when humans want food they give money in exchange, for dogs they just have to "sit", "heel", etc and then the cookie will come out from the cookie dispenser [;)]

    They follow and obey confident leaders not cookie dispensers
    • Gold Top Dog
    There was a time in American schools where rapping children across the knuckles for inattention and/or simple failure to learn a lesson was an acceptable method of teaching. Paddling a child for minor transgressions of behavior was also considered acceptable. Later, it was found that children were fearful and resentful, had less respect for their teachers actual instructional methods, and learned less when these behaviors were employed.

     
    That's how I was raised, with the paddle, tree limb, thick leather belts, stirring spoon, whatever was handy. I was fearful of getting spanked. The fear of getting spanked would sometimes keep me from doing something I wanted to do that might get me in trouble. That is, the punishment was stronger than any fun I might get out of misbehaving. My mother loved me, and I respected her and followed her rules, whether I liked them, or not, whether I agreed with her, or not. And there was motivation, at times, to make her happy. To do things that were responsible without being asked, to see her smile.
     
    My mother is dead. My grandparents only live about 40 miles from and I haven't seen them since 1989. Growing up, they didn't spank us often. But I had to endure hours of psychological battering, and non-inclusion, and the promise of rewards that would later be denied. That is, my grandparents hardly laid a finger on me and I don't see them to this day. My mother, and step-fathers, who administered most of my corporal punishment are people that I respect and would still talk to today, given the chance. And I say that in honesty, not as a point of debate. My mother always kept her promises. If she promised you heaven, break out your halo. If she promised you hell, dress for warm weather. The spanking was to curb bad behavior by attaching a negative consequence to it. By learning to avoid the bad behavior and a spanking, I could do the right thing and be rewarded for it. Nor was it always a spanking, There was grounding, extra chores, removal of priviliges. Spanking was usually reserved for the high crime of lying, and any behavior that might be life-threatening, such as running into traffic after being told not to.
     
    Most of the physical control I see described for dogs, including what is shown on that famous show, comes nowhere near the physical, or even psychological punishment of my upbringing. Again, I am not fearful or resentful of my mother and I still respect and admire her to this day, though she passed away on 3-14-87.
     
    I'm not saying that dogs are like humans, either. I would never hit a dog. For one thing, dogs lack the abstract reasoning to understand what it means. They simply see it as an attack and either return right then, or wait for their moment to get back. But if I have to physically control one, I will, though I would rather use treat-training and endless repetition, if possible. In most training schemes, I think it is the attitude that is more important, though different dogs do respond to different motivations, etc.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    My idea of good leader is someone who sets clear and reasonable rules and boundries and stands by them. Someone who is calm and fair yet firm and assertive

     
    Amen. That is how I lead a crew at work, when I have one.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Now I'm a cookie dispensing room mate?  While you have no idea when, how often or under what conditions I give liver treats, not cookies, I guess my question would be why they would in your estimation follow me when no treats are involved if I am only a cookie dispensing roommate?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    Now I'm a cookie dispensing room mate?  While you have no idea when, how often or under what conditions I give liver treats, not cookies, I guess my question would be why they would in your estimation follow me when no treats are involved if I am only a cookie dispensing roommate?


    Ok ok "treat dispenser" [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    And yet you fail to explain why they choose to follow me when I am treatless.....after all, I'm nothing more than a treat dispencing, butler and roommate, so why should they WANT to please me, as they clearly do, whether I have treats or not?  Makes no sense to me.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok ok "treat dispenser"


    Name calling is a bullying, insecure, aggressive behavior.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    Kill 'em but don't correct 'em? Are you serious?

    I don't even know where to begin.


    I'm not sure I understand what that means.  You don't have to "correct" a dog, in the traditional sense of physical punishment, to be able to correct his behavior.  So, one doesn't necessarily lead to the other. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    If I'm a cookie dispensing roommate, like Glenda, then how come my dogs don't need treats to finish a nice agility run, or to complete a public performance, or to just be all around nice, obedient dogs?  I don't get how you equate the use of food with having a dog that is not respectful of its human.  If you have had that result, then you simply haven't been using food correctly in your training.  But, that's a handler problem, not a type of reward problem.
    • Gold Top Dog
    And still no explanation why my crew follow me as their leader when I am treatless.........could it perhaps BE that I have in fact established myself as their leader, regardless of treats??????  Hmmmmmmmm.
     
    Anne, just move over and make room for me in that treat dispensing roommate, butler corner please.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    And still no explanation why my crew follow me as their leader when I am treatless.........could it perhaps BE that I have in fact established myself as their leader, regardless of treats??????  Hmmmmmmmm.

    Anne, just move over and make room for me in that treat dispensing roommate, butler corner please.

    But leadership has nothing to do with dog training.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ah, well thanks for clearing that up.
     
    Wanna explain that to my six dogs?  Five of whom have earned their CGC?  All of whom I am able to take just about anyplace without worry about their behavior?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Did you forget what thread you were in? 

    "why leadership has nothing to do with dog training"

    I'd like someone to explain that one to me myself.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nope, haven't quite made it to senile yet.  Food/treat dispensing, butler and roommate, but not senile.....
     
    I firmly believe that leadership has EVERYTHING to do with training.