why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

fisher6000 wrote: I do not understand why anyone would create a relationship with their dogs in which they are bullies because everybody knows that bullies are insecure and weak. And to hear this bullying strategy championed as the strong strategy is just so confusing to me. I don't know what to think of it.

I think most people who handle their dogs with a leadership hand do not bully their dogs. I never used the clicker, I don't use treats............a simple command, repeating it several times, praising my dog for doing it is NOT  the bully method. I don't use food, why......well, if I am telling a person I am proud of him or her  while teaching I don't stuff a piece of cake in their face everytime they get it.

Okay, I'm sorry, lions and the dog/human relationship is simply not comparable. For a start, lions are felines. Atypical felines, but large felines all the same and that immediately puts them worlds apart from canines. Male lions are quite capable of hunting for themselves and do so when the opportunity presents itself. A lioness' job in the pride is to hunt, have cubs and chase off lionesses from other prides. A male's job is to protect the pride from male lions and other non-lion threats. Resource control simply doesn't come into it. Male lions spend most of their lives not part of a pride. They can't join a pride until they and a brother or two, or friend, are big and strong enough to overthrow the current lions. Then they kill all the current cubs and are lucky if they get more than one lot of cubs sired and raised to maturity before they're ousted by another lion coalition. This is nothing like dog pack dynamics. Males get to eat first because they're the biggest, but if they kill something big enough to share, the lionesses get to share as well. Lions and lionesses generally try to stay out of each other's business until it's time to mate. And even then, there's no hierarchy within the males and they all get to mate. [sm=soap%20box.gif]

Okay, I'm sorry. Mis-representation of lion life is just one of my pet hates.

No dogs are not made of glass, but I sure like to be nice to them. It makes it a lot easier to live harmoniously with them. I wouldn't like it if someone yanked on me. Even if it doesn't hurt, I can imagine it would be extremely annoying. Therefore, I don't want to do it to a dog.

I guess some people are naturally bullies to other people, so they transfer that to dogs as well. I totally agree that a good leader doesn't need to throw their weight around. When Penny was top dog, she did throw her weight around and it was pretty clear that everyone hated her being at the top. She was a bad leader because she was a bully, and she was a bully because she was insecure. Her history as top dog had been frightening for her and she was afraid of being there, but felt like she'd be killed if she wasn't. Thus, bad leader. She was eventually overthrown and everyone is a whole lot happier, including her, once she realised she wasn't going to die.

I think most people who handle their dogs with a leadership hand do not bully their dogs. I never used the clicker, I don't use treats............a simple command, repeating it several times, praising my dog for doing it is NOT  the bully method. I don't use food, why......well, if I am telling a person I am proud of him or her  while teaching I don't stuff a piece of cake in their face everytime they get it.

Clicker training is not about treats and only treats.

Treats can be a very clear communication tool when teaching a new behavior, and so work faster than praise.

What you describe is not bullying. What do you do when the dog doesn't get it?

I guess it's a matter of wording. I consider myself a 'leader' to my dog because she looks to me for instructions and takes cues from my mood and actions.
 
But really, like mudpuppy mentions, this is not because I have placed myself as the alpha canine. It is because dogs do what works for them. Looking at me for instructions and obeying me results in good things for the dog - whether it is treats, playtime, or just a little attention. I think dogs do things for one of two reasons: to get something good, or to avoid something bad. Not because they love us, think we're the leader, or whatever else. It's natural for us to want to think "Fido obeys me because he loves me and respects me". But these are not humans and don't think like humans. When a dog pees on an expensive Persian rug, people think "he's mad at me". But really, it was just a soft absorbant surface to pee on. It works, so the dog does it. We train dogs by offering good things in exchange for good behaviours. Some people train dogs by offering punishment in response to bad behaviours. Either way, the dog is looking out for itself and we as trainers use that to shape the behaviour we want.
 
That's what I think anyway!

Wow is really funny to see that you answer just to some of my questions but not to others because that wont help you to make your point
 
Like i said:
 
Is my father a bully because he didnt like something i did????
 
If my father grounds me and i tell him "dont do that because is annoying" should he stop grounding me even when i'm still missbehaving?
 
Is also funny to see how people distorsion reality to make it seem ugly and i'm talking about "yanking" the dog, if you name it that way sounds sooo bad when the difference is not, so i guess i will start naming giving treats with a bad name to make it sound horrible too
 
I know lions are not like dogs and dogs are not humans, and because of that reason that shows that not because a human is providing food that means the dog will see that person as a leader, thank you, you just helped to prove my point

I really haven't experienced a tough case yet, but  I had to deal with dogs that were somewhat slower than others. I usually  exercise my dogs a lot to get rid of extra energy. While walking I call individual dogs to me and just re-enforce basic commands, praise them, and on we go. When being in a training session I get rid off distractions. I think my biggest succes with training would be that I don't just train , I make it fun with praise , playing a little, and I don't try to teach when I can see the dog is getting bored or had it's limit.

I give treats when the whole pack is relaxed, I have had success  training without food association.
I am also blessed with having the opportunity to run a business out of my home and have a lot of time to spend with my dogs, that allows me to judge when a dog is most receptive for training.We eat together, sleep together.............work together. Even when I have to leave the house, one of my dogs is always with me. 

If your father were to smack you because he didn't like something you did, yes he'd be a bully, even if it didn't physically harm you. If he withholds a privledge until you do your chores, he's acting in an appropriate way.
 
There was a time in American schools where rapping children across the knuckles for inattention and/or simple failure to learn a lesson was an acceptable method of teaching. Paddling a child for minor transgressions of behavior was also considered acceptable. Later, it was found that children were fearful and resentful, had less respect for their teachers actual instructional methods, and learned less when these behaviors were employed.
 
Certainly dogs are not children. But as highly intelligent mammals we share many learning characteristics with dogs. People who live with dogs can learn much from watching the way Orcas are and are not trained.

Personally I don't smack or use physical discipline on my dog. My reasoning is that dogs look out for themselves and if a dog gets used to seeing a hand come down on his nose and smacking him, who's to say he won't snap one day when a person goes to pat him on the head and he misinterpretes it?
 
I am not saying a little physical discipline is cruel, but I remind myself that many dogs could crush their owners hand in an instant if they wanted, but they choose not to.  I like to reinforce the fact that all touching, patting, and handling by people is a positive thing. If I hit my dog, even though it may not be really hard or painful, I am showing her that being touched and handled by people is NOT always good. In my opinion that could open the doors to problems in the future.

ORIGINAL: espencer
Is also funny to see how people distorsion reality to make it seem ugly and i'm talking about "yanking" the dog, if you name it that way sounds sooo bad when the difference is not, so i guess i will start naming giving treats with a bad name to make it sound horrible too

You don't have to. The "Positive Only" clicker-and-treat extremists have already done this themselves and have become known as the "kill 'em but don't correct 'em" crowd.

They read fear into submissive body language and conjure up genetic defects, thyroid problems, or rage syndrome far too often where it does not exist. They claim many dogs with aggression "issues" are lost causes who should be put down rather than admit a dog is beyond their skill level and preferred method, or send the dog to a trainer who uses another method who can help the dog where they failed. 

Oh no! That would mean that "Positive Only" click-and-treat isn't the magical fix they claim works on every dog. So there must be something wrong with the dog = death to the dog.

Their marketing strategy is based on emotional propaganda, misrepresenting other methods, twisting the words of others, hysterical attacks, and their leaders use personal attacks against anyone who uses any method which has not been endorsed by the inner circle and leaders of the +R APDT fanatics. No wonder their "followers", (and that is what they are - not an independant thought in the house) feel free to distort the truth, twist the words of others and conjure up emotional imagery. They have been taught how to do this and often what to say as if they are reading an approved script.

These folks will even attack other positive method trainers who are not positive enough, or because they use a correction when appropriate.

In their fanatical belief of their self-rightous holy crusade they give themselves the right to say and do whatever it takes to bring down and smear the competition, even if that competition can help a trouble dog and owner when they can't.
 
You will not be able to have a rational conversation with a closed minded extremist...that is how you spot them.

Dogs are so easy. And I'm finding the study and activities of these extremists quite fascinating. I've studied dog "training" trends for years, but now (thanks to the internet) what they have been selling privately to the general public with their emotional propoganda is now out in the open, in print, and for all the world to see.
 
The use of positive methods and treats to train does not mean someone is an extremist any more than the use of a correction makes someone a bully. There is a difference between a brutal trainer, and one who uses corrections when appropriate.

Shame on all you naughty little fanatics! The needs of the dogs and owners and the safety of society should come first.

Ouch. I think the Behavior section is getting too aggressive for me these days. I can't decide if that says something about me or something about the posters lately.
 
Generally, I believe any training, however it's been done, is better than no training for a dog. It's not fair for them to enter a family and not have any tools in which to successfully survive, so I'm all for training however it's done. But let's face it--there are methods for various people and certain methods work for certain people.
 
This isn't going to ever be a totally enlightening dialogue because people hang onto their training theories like they do religion.
 
I guess that means the readers and posters here need to find their own theory and be happy they did.

Another good post Angelique.  People need to think about their dogs and their training and keep an open mind.  There isn't one method of dog training that fits every dog. 

This has turned into an interesting discussion but I still don't understand the point to this thread:

"why leadership has nothing to do with dog training"

How could anyone make this statement?  Why doesn't leadership have anything to do with dog training?  Does the definition of leadership include dominating and bullying??
Good dog training must have good leadership.  My idea of good leader is someone who sets clear and reasonable rules and boundries and stands by them.  Someone who is calm and fair yet firm and assertive.

Good heavens!  I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the comments in this thread.  And I certainly can't tell what "side" some of these folks are on!
 
Being the leader of your pack is much like being a parent.  You can spank, yell, verbally degrade your child and make him feel like a pile of spit stuck to the bottom of someones shoe, or you can set firm and consistent guidelines and boundaries, offer praise when praise is due and ignore the little stuff that you find annoying, or redirect to something LESS annoying.  I have always been one to pick my battles, and the holey jeans didn't matter as much to me as what was on the INSIDE.
 
I have two adult sons.  My youngest is ADHD and was a MAJOR challenge.  With him, I learned that the clear and consistent boundaries were the KEY to a well behaved child, even when his chemical imbalance had him bouncing off the walls.  He could STILL bounce off the walls, but do so in a manner that didn't drive me UP them.
 
The very worst thing I could say to EITHER of my sons was "I'm very disappointed in you".  I didn't hit, I didn't scream and I didn't degrade them.  They grew into fine and respectful, loving adults.
 
I have pretty much always used this same philosophy with my dogs.  I live with SIX german shepherds and I frequently foster.  My dogs know that they are expected to "be nice" to any newcomer that happens through our doors.  There is no fighting, no postering, no BS.  They know that the gate to the back deck does not open until everyones butt is on the ground at the bottom of the steps, that the door to go outside will not open until butts are on the floor, that the homemade liver treats are NEVER dispenced until all six butts are on the ground, that when someone says "go to bed" that they are to go downstairs, to their crates and lay down, and not leave those crates until they are told OK.  We don't NEED to close crate doors at nite because no one would think to leave their crate without an OK.  I suppose I could go on and on about all the things that they can and will do because they have been trained to do them, but what is the point?  The only "trick" I have taught them is "cross your paws" since there seems often to be need for crossed fingers and paws.......
 
My dogs have perfect recall and I can and have called them off running deer, rabbits and wild turkeys.  And, I have brought my "problem child" to the point where she CAN tolerate strangers.
 
So?  Exactly what is it that I'm doing wrong?
 
And, for the record, I also fed my children.  I didn't consider myself THEIR butler either.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

If your father were to smack you because he didn't like something you did, yes he'd be a bully, even if it didn't physically harm you. If he withholds a privledge until you do your chores, he's acting in an appropriate way.

There was a time in American schools where rapping children across the knuckles for inattention and/or simple failure to learn a lesson was an acceptable method of teaching. Paddling a child for minor transgressions of behavior was also considered acceptable. Later, it was found that children were fearful and resentful, had less respect for their teachers actual instructional methods, and learned less when these behaviors were employed.

Certainly dogs are not children. But as highly intelligent mammals we share many learning characteristics with dogs. People who live with dogs can learn much from watching the way Orcas are and are not trained.

Well i dont think there is one single training method that smacks the dog, i said "grounding" not "smacking", so dont take it to a higher level that i've never talked about, so again "is my father a bully because he is upset that i did something wrong?" should  my father stop teaching me right from wrong because i find it anoying? who said something about smacking a dog in this thread? who said something about physical violence? we spoke about corrections which are WAY more different

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Being the leader of your pack is much like being a parent.  You can spank, yell, verbally degrade your child and make him feel like a pile of spit stuck to the bottom of someones shoe, or you can set firm and consistent guidelines and boundaries, offer praise when praise is due and ignore the little stuff that you find annoying, or redirect to something LESS annoying.  I have always been one to pick my battles, and the holey jeans didn't matter as much to me as what was on the INSIDE.

The very worst thing I could say to EITHER of my sons was "I'm very disappointed in you".  I didn't hit, I didn't scream and I didn't degrade them.  They grew into fine and respectful, loving adults.

And, for the record, I also fed my children.  I didn't consider myself THEIR butler either.

And where have you seen a pack leader making a follower feel like trash? i havent and certainly any of us here does that when teaching a dog the difference between right or wrong

Since dogs dont speak English i can not tell them i'm disappointed, sorry, thats why i choose to show it, N-O-T with violence but with a simple correction that most of the times does not involve more that a simple "sshhtt" or "hey" or in the worse case a simple quick pull and release from the collar

And for the record not because you dont consider yourself as just a roomate who brings food to the pack that does not mean they dont se you like that [], if i consider myself president of USA does that make me president?

Kill 'em but don't correct 'em? Are you serious?
 
I don't even know where to begin.

So, espencer, you're saying that my sons and my dogs obey me and do what I request because they see me as a ROOMMATE?  Do they fear that I won't wait on them by feeding them if they irritate me?  They certainly aren't going to see me throw a tantrum if I don't get my own way, so kindly explain to me, what IS their motivation for obeying and PLEASING me?