why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

It's funny how some people whom use treats to train their dog end up having a well behaved dog while others whom use treats fail.
 
Used in the wrong context or the wrong circumstances, reward-based training won't work either.
 
I also find it funny how, when I was using "traditional" methods of training (yes, that included alpha rolls and stupid 'dominance' displays by me), I had a "lemon" dog that refused to learn, listen, pay attention to me, or do anything I asked. Once I switched to reinforcement type training, many of the behaviors that I hated disapeared. This included practicing NILIF and recongnizing that pretty much 0% of my dog's behavior had anything to do with wanting to be "alpha."

I'm not so positive about the brain of a dog, I'm afraid. I tend to think, like Donaldson, that they have "lemon" brains but we love them anyway. My BF, who's never had a dog (oh my) tends to give my two way more credit than they deserve.

If I think they think at a higher level than they do, then all I get is frustrated with them for not doing what they know they need to be doing. They're like those lazy coworkers who are just collecting a check and doing nothing and I know they plan out each day so they never have to do anything but pick up a check.

That's not how I choose to live and that's not the level of emotion I choose to live at. My dogs aren't "lazy" or "planning" anything. They have to be shown, over and over and over until they have things memorized. And for me, the clicker and treats do that. Once they show me they can do it 80%+ or better, no more clicker (and only as a surprise a treat). Pulling my dog into a Down hasn't worked for me--hasn't worked for me with the 3 dogs I've had. Letting them take themselves down works for me and it works for them.

Basic obedience--yes, and both of mine have passed basic obedience and are on their way to earning their Good Canine Citizen award.

But, the "trick" comment from above has me thinking of some super cool tricks I want to teach them now--because hey, that's really what my friends want to see. They expect to see obedience, but they'd love to see a trick. Yeah, I kind of do want dogs who perform tricks. Why not? If managing behavior isn't a full-time job for me anymore, I want something!

Thanks for mentioning it! []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
The fact that you produce the reward after a requested behavior, means you are not bribing your dog, nor are you abdicating any leadership role, you are simply giving them a paycheck for their work.

This is good LEADERSHIP 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
If, on the other hand, you are allowing them to "demand" a cookie, either by groveling, pawing, nudging, or offering a behavior you didn't request, then you are bribing, and need to review your understanding of reward-based training, properly applied.

This is poor LEADERSHIP

I'm not sure I understand the point to this thread?  In my view leadership has a great deal to do with dog training.  It would make more sense if the title was "Why bullying and dominating have nothing to do with dog training"

ORIGINAL: snownose

My dogs don't get treats when I need them to behave . They are rewarded when relaxed and calm, that is what I am trying to encourage. I used to make the biggest mistake by coming home and handing out treats, after I coaxed them to sit and look at me. After the treat was gone the frenzie continued, now I totally ignore them when I leave and when I come back. The behavior has changed, no more frenzie when I leave or arrive. Being the leader means using your head and not the treat bag.

A dog is willing to do just about anything for a treat. Do I want dogs that can perform tricks ? No..........

Food as a reward is only one of the things that trainers can use to motivate dogs, but the idea that you cannot successfully train a dog using food is ludicrous. You must simply know how to use it properly.
I have four (and before yesterday, five) dogs all trained using either food or toys as a reward, and none of them display the irritating behaviors you described.
I'm curious as to what method you use to train your dogs.  Correction-based? Am I getting warm?

BTW, you show your ignorance when you say "do I want a dog that does tricks? no" because tricks are nothing more than behaviors or chains of behaviors - same as sit, down, or heel.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

what problems exactly? If your dog shoves you out of the way and eats your dinner every night, I guess that could be a dominance problem. I've never heard of anyone reporting such a situation. Most people complain about "normal" doggy behaviors-- resource guarding, jumping up, eating the furniture, pulling on leash, pottying on the floor, barking, digging, etc. none of which are due to lack of leadership on the human's part; or they complain that their dog doesn't obey commands, which again has nothing to do with lack of leadership.

I don't understand how any dog could be confused about status in the household. The leader is the one who controls the resources. Not many dogs know how to open cans, unlock doors, drive cars, go grocery shopping. Therefore all dogs know exactly who is in charge, and it's not the dog.

 
What problems? nipping at you, growling, barking, getting mad because he does not want you to do things, and i am not saying this happens to you exactly but no leader no rules here and in China
 
The leader does not control the resources, with the lions the females are the ones hunting, they control the resources, who is the one in charge there? the females? or the male? You can be just a roomate who provides the food while the "alpha" dog provides the balance and discipline
 
You drive the car because you put them there in first place, they dont need cars, can openers, etc. you provide those because is your choice but they didnt ask you for it, since you have them in your house well they know the roomate will bring food anyways, you can see it that way but i see it as you are the butler while the king is enjoing all that you bring to him

My dogs don't get treats when I need them to behave .

 
 
Who is talking about treats? You can train a dog using many methods. None involve "leadership" or "respect" or "dominance", whatever you want to call it. All you need to do is COMMUNICATE and MOTIVATE. A traditional collar-pop trained dog learns that if he sits when you say sit he won't get a painful yank on his neck. He's trained. Where does "leadership" come into it?
 
Example: I go to work. I have no respect for my boss. She has no leadership qualities. I obey her commands because I want my paycheck and don't want to get fired. It would be nice if my boss actually had some leadership qualities, but hey, we don't choose our bosses.

"What problems? nipping at you, growling, barking, getting mad because he does not want you to do things, and i am not saying this happens to you exactly but no leader no rules here and in China

The leader does not control the resources, with the lions the females are the ones hunting, they control the resources, who is the one in charge there? the females? or the male? You can be just a roomate who provides the food while the "alpha" dog provides the balance and discipline "



nipping and growling and barking are not necessarily dominance problems. Dogs most often nip humans because they are trying to play like a dog. Herding dogs nip humans because they are hard-wired to try to herd moving objects. Growling is just a communication-- I feel threatened. Very fearful dogs are more likely to growl than dominant dogs. Many growls and bites directed at humans are simply resource guarding, which is not a dominance problem either, just a normal dog behavior. Barking at humans is often a frustration behavior: I don't know what you want. Nothing to do with dominance, simply a lack of good communication going on. Some dogs bark to try to induce the human to play, the same way they'd bark at another dog they wanted to play with.

And in lions, the male is the alpha. The females catch the meat, and then the male moves in, and the females defer to him and let him eat: he controls the resources. They don't carry the meat to the male and give it to him. A pack of dogs might pull down a deer together, and guess what, the submissive dogs back off and let the alpha dog eat first. When the alpha is done, he/she GIVES the resources to the other dogs. Dominant adults GIVE food to puppies. This is what humans do all the time-- they GIVE food to dogs. 

People talk about "pushy" dogs "demanding" food and attention as a dominance problem, but really, it's just training gone awry. The dog will repeat whatever behaviors worked to get him food or attention the last time, whether it be sitting quietly or leaping onto your lap and pawing at you. Your choice in which behavior(s) you prefer to reward.

I dont know why people here think that dogs are made of glass, if i pull your arm do i brake it? and i'm not saying that you can kick a dog and he wont feel it, but the "yank" as you call it is painless, just like pulling your arm and say "hey", is my father a bully because he is upset when i do something wrong?

You really well know what do i mean by barking being a problem, not when barking is normal, so lets not pretend that you thought i was talking about barking in any kind of situation

For the dogs the human is the female lion, the human provides and he "controls" the resources as you say it

If you want your dog to be the leader and you the follower thats fine with me, that does not affect my life at all, if you go thru life thinking you are in charge because "you are the one giving the food" thats ok, if you are happy like that thats ok, i rather to be the leader of my pack and not let others be the leader

I said my dogs don't get treats when I want them to behave, now we have someone here jumping to conclusions . I snap my fingers and point down, the dogs sit. How did I do it? I first started by saying sit, snapped my fingers and pushed the behind down. Then I pet them and say good boy. After a while they get the picture, they do it on their own. Here comes the cruel correction method for when they are not behaving, I make a noice like shhh, that works now, but before I touched the dogs shoulders or necks. Yes, Cesar's method, works like a charm for me.
 
I just wanted to add, a jerk with a leash is much less cruel then what dogs do to each other when playing, just my opinion.

The dog will repeat whatever behaviors worked to get him food or attention the last time, whether it be sitting quietly or leaping onto your lap and pawing at you. Your choice in which behavior(s) you prefer to reward.

 
Excellent point. And thanks for what you said about paychecks. At times, it seems like an easy metaphor to use checks as +R. To me, paycheck is part of the contract with your employer to trade your time for money, different than +R.
 

How did I do it? I first started by saying sit, snapped my fingers and pushed the behind down. Then I pet them and say good boy.

 
Visual clues and +R. I also have nothing wrong with touching a dog to get their attention. Not a hit or a clout or not even a scruff but a simple hand rub to bring their attention back to you.

I always enjoy the "paycheck" metaphor.

There are those who will work for a paycheck in a company regardless of how miserable they are. But just ask anyone who lives with someone who works for a rotten boss who is a poor leader, because the misery and frustration comes out at home. 

Then there are those who will leave a company for a better job if there is poor leadership which leaves the workplace in chaos and the workers squabble amoungst themselves in misery to establish a pecking order, because that paycheck is not worth suffering in silence under an "unstable" boss who never lets you know where you stand and is either by nature a bully or a whimp.

The best workplace teaches you how to do your job, has a leader who is firm but trustworthy, and a paycheck for a job well done...so much nicer for the loved ones at home who have to deal with you after a day at the job, too.

There is a difference between being a bully and a firm consistant leader who communicates clearly what is expected.

A dog knows the difference, where a "Positive Only" clicker-and-treat extremist does not...they can only misrepresent what they do not understand and fear, and twist the words of others.

If you want your dog to be the leader and you the follower thats fine with me, that does not affect my life at all, if you go thru life thinking you are in charge because "you are the one giving the food" thats ok, if you are happy like that thats ok, i rather to be the leader of my pack and not let others be the leader

ORIGINAL: espencer

I think your having a comprehension problem since Mudpuppy has said nothing of the sort.  Leadership is a process by which a person influences others to accomplish an objective leading, guiding or inspiring.  What exactly is your beef with what is being said here?  I think you're really off the mark.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I always enjoy the "paycheck" metaphor.

There are those who will work for a paycheck in a company regardless of how miserable they are. But just ask anyone who lives with someone who works for a rotten boss who is a poor leader, because the misery and frustration comes out at home. 

Then there are those who will leave a company for a better job if there is poor leadership which leaves the workplace in chaos and the workers squabble amoungst themselves in misery to establish a pecking order, because that paycheck is not worth suffering in silence under an "unstable" boss who never lets you know where you stand and is either by nature a bully or a whimp.

The best workplace teaches you how to do your job, has a leader who is firm but trustworthy, and a paycheck for a job well done...so much nicer for the loved ones at home who have to deal with you after a day at the job, too.

There is a difference between being a bully and a firm consistant leader who communicates clearly what is expected.

A dog knows the difference, where a "Positive Only" clicker-and-treat extremist does not...they can only misrepresent what they do not understand and fear, and twist the words of others.

 
 Well said Angelique.

I dont know why people here think that dogs are made of glass, if i pull your arm do i brake it?

This is so strange.

No, if you pulled my arm you would not break it. But I also wouldn't see you as a leader. When a human resorts to physically or verbally pushing one another around, that human is acting like a bully and not a leader. The person being bossed around may have to submit in the short term, but in general is going to move away from the bully and not toward the bully, and will see the bully not as a leader, but as an insecure bully.

Dogs don't really behave all that differently--the whole point of the post is that truly dominant dogs don't need to throw their weight around. While I disagree with MP and I do think that her description of the way she works with her dogs is the very essence of good, egoless leadership, I absolutely have seen the way the alpha dog has no need to pull on any other dog's arm or the canine equivalent.

Confident leaders preempt and defuse conflict, work to take care of what their people need, and, above all, are benevolent. Confident leaders are not concerned with their own ego and how they appear, they are happy to work from beneath or in a supporting role, and have their eye on the shared goal.

I do not understand why anyone would create a relationship with their dogs in which they are bullies because everybody knows that bullies are insecure and weak. And to hear this bullying strategy championed as the strong strategy is just so confusing to me. I don't know what to think of it.