why leadership has nothing to do with dog training

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] Great Post! [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

The two primarily definitions for leadership are:

One that leads or guides or inspires.
One who is in charge or in command of others.

She doesn't lead, she doesn't care what the other dogs do-- they choose to follow her

  Inspires
 

Most of my training involves teaching dogs to not-behave like "normal" dogs

  Guides
 

I spend a lot of time rewarding behaviors I like, and carefully explaining what certain english words mean.

  Leads
 
Mudpuppy, you sure sound like a leader to me and a damn good one. []
 
PS:  Alpa is not a word and has no meaning but the one us humans have given it.

I have the same philosophy as mudpuppy, but I guess tomato-tomahto, because I call it leadership, though you could just as easily call it "parenting" except that that would get people all riled up about how dogs aren't people. Frankly though, most of the things I learned in my teacher training apply just as much to living with dogs.
 
I've never seen any evidence that dogs actually think humans are also dogs. I think dogs deserve way more credit than that. They're not dumb. They can see (and smell) that we're not at all like them and that we have different behaviors and a whole different language. There's a lot of translation involved when you have dogs then, from dog to human and from human to dog. When you've got lots of animals, it's like being the General Secretary of your own UN.

Your dogs have to respect you.  My dobX was the alpha bitch but she defered to me.

This is much how I feel, as well. I read these books by behaviourists saying how badly we communicate to canines and I think, so what? We can't talk dog to them even if we wanted to. They cope pretty well despite our terrible grasp of canine body language. I think the ultimate is to form a bridge with your dog(s) communication-wise. You can learn from them and they can learn from you. It took my wild hare about 12 months to learn how to communicate with me, and it took me almost that long to learn a bit about how to communicate with him. What we have now is a strange bridge over the chasm between our species. He has tailored a lot of his behaviour for the best responses from me, and I have tailored a lot of my behaviour towards him for the best responses from him. It's certainly not natural for a hare to rattle everything in his cage when he's run out of water in the middle of the night, but it sure tells me that I ought to get up and fix it. Seeing that in action has made me realise that for a good relationship with our animals it goes both ways. We teach them human and they teach us species-specific body language.

Incidentally, when Penny was top dog for a while, she would tell the lower ranking pack member what I can only interpret as "Go and sit under that bush until I say you can come and greet the humans!". She did it with just a look and the lower ranking dog would meekly race off, crawl under the dense bush and sit there until Penny was finished with her greetings and allowed the other dog to come out with another glance. If the dog broke that sit-stay before she was done, she'd halt it in its tracks with another glare and it would crawl right back under the bush and sit again. I only wish I could communicate so much to a dog with a look! []

Good job, Mudpuppy! I love it! Totally agree, especially after trying the physical way to get things to change. It's so much easier the way I'm approaching things now and it's working, too!
 
I have two dogs--one who is a spayed female and IS the boss/leader/alpha (whatever). She really would never help Murphy learn better behavior because her time, around Murphy, is about herself. Getting the best bed (and knowing she can have it), licking his dish when he's done eating, having the best toy--it's all about her.
 
But, lucky for them they have me and I work at teaching them that patience pays off and that watching me and learning from me pays off.
 
They'd never do that on their own!

Any time I think to doze off at the keyboard, there you are with another terrific post!  I do call this communication system "leadership", and sometimes I borrow Trish McConnell's phrase, "benevolent leader", but you are, in fact, correct, that it is all about English as a second language for dogs, and Canine as a second language for us.  Bravo!!!!!!

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I live with a pack of dogs. There is a clear leader, an alpha bitch. I think the term "leader" is dead wrong. She doesn't lead, she doesn't care what the other dogs do-- they choose to follow her. Her only expectations of the other dogs is that they defer to her-- she gets first dibs on the food, toys, sleeping spots, and access to humans. It would never occur to her to protect or comfort one of the subordinate dogs. She considers resource guarding and submissive greetings (jumping up) to be normal acceptable behavior. She has never once asked a dog to stop pulling on the leash, to come when called, to sit, to potty in a particular place.

 
I agree that the dog does NOT has to see you as leader to know how to sit, heel, roll over, bring something etc. However i differ in the part of and "alpha" dog does not care what other dogs do and thats exactly why she eats first, has the best sleeping spot, etc. If one of the followers tries to eat first then you will see how actually she cares what others do, if a follower is to hyper or has a behavior she does not like then she will do something about it, etc
 
The thing is that since she has control over them from the beginning they know how to behave, not because you havent see her correcting one of the followers that does not mean she doesnt
 
You dont see her giving part of her food because the followers waited for her to eat first, to sleep in their own spot, etc.
 
Take that alpha dog out of the pack and then you will see unbalanced behavior and will try to have any other pack leader, why? because they need a leader, "alpha" or whatever you want them to call
 
With +R you are focused in what YOU need (not peeing in your floor, not pulling, not barking,etc) but you dont think on about what THEY need and what they need is a leader (besides excercise, discipline,etc) because a leader gives them that balance, just like you getting in a new office with no director, no supervisor, etc, that would be a caos and one of you will try to take a higher position since no one toke it before
 
Now since you have more than one dog, they already choose a pack leader who's the one giving that balance, but most of the people just have one or at the most 2 dogs, if they just have one they will try then to be the leader (if they were born to be leader) or they will be confused (if they were not born to be leader and they dont see the owner as one) and thats when the problems come
 
If they have 2 dogs then you will see them fight to gain that position, you dont have to be a dog for them to see you as "alpha", you can be all human you want and still be the leader

"Why leadership has nothing to do with dog training"
 
...Is exactly why you need both. Take a perfectly trained dog and place it within two different households - one with a calm compassionate human with good leadership skills, or another with a nervous insecure human with no leadership skills, and the dog will behave quite differently.
 
 

The tao te ching is a great leadership manual, actually.

The Tao states over and over again that the truly powerful person never, ever has to use their power. And therefore wise leaders never lead with anything other than benevolent guidance. Dominant displays from the leader only serve to undermine the leader's own power.

Mudpuppy is very succinctly restating the Tao of Dog. Very nice.

"Now since you have more than one dog, they already choose a pack leader who's the one giving that balance, but most of the people just have one or at the most 2 dogs, if they just have one they will try then to be the leader (if they were born to be leader) or they will be confused (if they were not born to be leader and they dont see the owner as one) and thats when the problems come "
 
 
what problems exactly? If your dog shoves you out of the way and eats your dinner every night, I guess that could be a dominance problem. I've never heard of anyone reporting such a situation. Most people complain about "normal" doggy behaviors-- resource guarding, jumping up, eating the furniture, pulling on leash, pottying on the floor, barking, digging, etc. none of which are due to lack of leadership on the human's part; or they complain that their dog doesn't obey commands, which again has nothing to do with lack of leadership.
 
I don't understand how any dog could be confused about status in the household. The leader is the one who controls the resources. Not many dogs know how to open cans, unlock doors, drive cars, go grocery shopping. Therefore all dogs know exactly who is in charge, and it's not the dog.

Whether or not a dog views you as their leader, will be determined by the dog. A dog which displays dominant behaviors is communicating to you that they are the leader. A dog which displays submissive behaviors is communicating to you that you are the leader.
 
Dominant and submissive displays and behaviors are also a form of communication, not just natural born personality traits. There is a difference between the two.
 
Most of this can be achieved through attitude and demeanor, unless the dog is already messed up and in need of rehabilitation. Changing the social dynamic of the relationship once you are seen as subordinant is more difficult than starting out right in the beginning of the relationship.
 
There is no leadership being established when the dog views you as nothing more than a human cookie dispenser which they are manipulating into coughing up treats on demand.
 
This is "why leadership has nothing to do with dog training"

ORIGINAL: Angelique


There is no leadership being established when the dog views you as nothing more than a human cookie dispenser which they are manipulating into coughing up treats on demand.

This is "why leadership has nothing to do with dog training"

Bullying isn't leadership either, nor should it have anything to do with dog training, so why do so many humans feel they must do it to prove their status over dogs?  The fact that you own the cookies, and are just sharing them, is what is relevant to the dog in terms of leadership. 
But, they don't apply for CEO of your household just based on whether you reward them with cookies, a tug toy, or a pat on the head.  The fact that you produce the reward after a requested behavior, means you are not bribing your dog, nor are you abdicating any leadership role, you are simply giving them a paycheck for their work.  If, on the other hand, you are allowing them to "demand" a cookie, either by groveling, pawing, nudging, or offering a behavior you didn't request, then you are bribing, and need to review your understanding of reward-based training, properly applied.

My dogs don't get treats when I need them to behave . They are rewarded when relaxed and calm, that is what I am trying to encourage. I used to make the biggest mistake by coming home and handing out treats, after I coaxed them to sit and look at me. After the treat was gone the frenzie continued, now I totally ignore them when I leave and when I come back. The behavior has changed, no more frenzie when I leave or arrive. Being the leader means using your head and not the treat bag.
 
A dog is willing to do just about anything for a treat. Do I want dogs that can perform tricks ? No..........