Choker vs Harness

Gosh, this particular trainer has worked with dogs for many years, he trains dogs for protection and police work and works with some extremely agressive dogs, primarily without the use of aversives.  And HE emailed me, totally unsolicited about your attacking posts.
 
No, a front attach harness was NOT available to me at the time and my attempts to modify a regular harness were unsucessful.  I have SINCE discovered that working them on drag lines OFF LEASH is an excellent way to teach leash manners but even if I had known that at the time, I didn't have access to a safe area for that work then.
 
I feel the need to justify MY short term use of a prong on behalf of all the other folks who also use a prong as a last resort and don't deserve to be belittled by you or anyone else for that decision.  Anyone who has been on this board for any length of time knows that I did not make the decision to use a prong lightly (and that's a FAR better choice than a choker) and people here KNOW how much of my life is devoted to dogs in need and that I am not a cruel person.
 
My original post on this thread was to question your assertation that a prong is meant to be used forever on a dog. It is not.  It is a training tool and meant for short term use.  I said by that.

ORIGINAL: glenmar
.  The Easy Walk harness was NOT available then and even if it HAD been, the early models didn't fit GSD's properly...that's since been corrected. 
quote]
 
 
I know this feeling owning a large breed dog myself.
 
Where I live we don't do harness work (no snow and warm climate) so it is hard to get a harness that will fit a Mal. The large breed harnesses which say they will fit do not, they don't even come close. A harness has not fit him since 12 months of age.We now have to order one from the states for this breed of dog.
 
Sorry but not all countries will have harnesses to fit all breed dogs.

ORIGINAL: glenmar
 And HE emailed me, totally unsolicited about your attacking posts.

Please quote my "attacking" posts. I can seriously find none.

For what I've seen, if a dog's neck has desesitized to the prong collar, then the prong collar was used excesively and incorrectly.

 
Thank you!

And Glenda- that trainer has a medical background then because he emailed you? Did I understand that correctly? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker.
That's interesting. I'd like to know who that trainer is. The veterinary part of the University of Hannover, Germany, found out that skin thickens after just a few weeks. I'd like to know which American trainer with medical background can provide different scientific research?

ORIGINAL: glenmar

For what I've seen, if a dog's neck has desesitized to the prong collar, then the prong collar was used excesively and incorrectly.

 
Thank you!

Where did I say that you did anything wrong? That quote doesn't show anything.

ORIGINAL: jenmandy

ORIGINAL: glenmar

For what I've seen, if a dog's neck has desesitized to the prong collar, then the prong collar was used excesively and incorrectly.

 
Thank you!

Where did I say that you did anything wrong? That quote doesn't show anything.

...and it wasn't by me.

well...I'm not a moderator here, but seriously.......

There ya go again.....where exactly in any of my posts did I say that this trainer had a medical background?  I said he's worked with dogs for years, trains protection, police dogs etc, etc, etc.....where the heck does that say that this trainer has a medical background?
 
I suppose if you feel the need to come to this forum and find someone to pick on, I'm the best one, since I won't back down when I'm not wrong........

ORIGINAL: glenmar

There ya go again.....where exactly in any of my posts did I say that this trainer had a medical background?  I said he's worked with dogs for years, trains protection, police dogs etc, etc, etc.....where the heck does that say that this trainer has a medical background?

I suppose if you feel the need to come to this forum and find someone to pick on, I'm the best one, since I won't back down when I'm not wrong........

I don't get you. I said that trainers usually have no medical background and can't judge stuff like skin thickening. Then you quote a trainer- if you do that although we just talked about trainers not having the background, I assume this one has one.
I don't understand why you start this after me saying in a perfectly friendly way:
"Glenda, it's okay if you feel you need a prong. Everybody decides for him/herself. I don't see a reason to use one, as I can walk any dog (and I'm 120 lbs and talking of for example a very unruly Landseer with 160lbs and over) with a harness that fits and has the leash attached in front. I don't want to argue with you- you do as you please of course- I just go another route.[]"
After this you started getting really upset and rude. I don't understand your way of communicating. I think it makes no sense for me anymore to reply to your posts.

Pittman: sorry for the whole threadcrapping going on. I hope you find a solution to your problem! If you want to use a harness and can't find a great fitting one, you can have one custom made for little money. I had the same problem with my pitbull. [] Did you make any progress yet?

I tried the hooking the leash to the front of a regular harness thing.

Is it just me, or did the harness end up in my dog's eye?

I did end up purchasing an easy walk, to try, and it works great, but Emma hates it, so we rarely use it.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

I tried the hooking the leash to the front of a regular harness thing.

Is it just me, or did the harness end up in my dog's eye?

I did end up purchasing an easy walk, to try, and it works great, but Emma hates it, so we rarely use it.

This here:[linkhttp://www.ldsleather.com/trackingharnesses.html]http://www.ldsleather.com/trackingharnesses.html[/link]
would be your usual harness, this type has been around for ages, and exists in all kind of materials. Some breeds need a custom made one.
So, if it fits correctly- and that includes the straps around the neck,which need to fit really good- it won't move around much if you hook the leash in the front ring below the neck, on the bottom of the V- shape. I don't know how it could happen to get somewhere near a dog's eye?
If it does slip around, especially the part on the back, it doesn't fit correctly. it can't slip up too high when the strap between the legs is correctly adjusted, but it can move around if the rest doesn't fit. My pitbull for example needs a custom- made one, because the back strap is always too long for her. I used to have them send to me from the US, as I couldn't find anyone here until about 7 years ago who would make me a really good one.

found out that skin thickens after just a few weeks.

 
I find this hard to believe. Are these people using prongs PROPERLY (as in the dog self-corrects, most learn quickly and only self-correct a few times during the first few uses and thereafter walk nicely on a loose leash), or people who are actually giving leash-corrections to a prong? which is cruel and inhumane and wrong.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

found out that skin thickens after just a few weeks.

I find this hard to believe. Are these people using prongs PROPERLY (as in the dog self-corrects, most learn quickly and only self-correct a few times during the first few uses and thereafter walk nicely on a loose leash), or people who are actually giving leash-corrections to a prong? which is cruel and inhumane and wrong.

 
There is nothing that I have read in any training book I have seen on the matter that says that a prong is "self-correcting."  The dogs that I have seen be allowed to "self-correct" teach themselves little more than to pull on the prong.  I have seen this in 2 pits, one of which lost all her neck fur under the collar and bloodied her own neck, because the owner was letting her "self correct."
 
Sally does not "self-correct" on a prong (or a Halti, she has learned to pull through it), if she pulls, and is not corrected, she just pulls steadily harder, which WILL cause her to become desensitized.  Personally, I'd rather not have that.
 

Thank you mudpuppy.
 
Christina, the way that I was taught to use a prong was to keep Thor on a short leash, not allow him to lunge to the end of the lead and hurt himself, but to let the self correction be a gentle one.