Choker vs Harness

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

found out that skin thickens after just a few weeks.

I find this hard to believe. Are these people using prongs PROPERLY (as in the dog self-corrects, most learn quickly and only self-correct a few times during the first few uses and thereafter walk nicely on a loose leash), or people who are actually giving leash-corrections to a prong? which is cruel and inhumane and wrong.

Any kind of pressure/chafing of pointed metal (like prongs) leads to skin changes, just the prongs sitting and moving when the animals move is sufficient for this. It also has unpredictable consequences as it affects acupressure spots. The prongs are always poking into the dog's neck, even if it just hangs there.
Similar is true for collars that have buckles on the opposite side of the ring where the leash is attached (depending on the buckle making contact of course).
Even a  simple collar that has less than 2" width (for a dog of average height up to GSD) can have a huge impact on the throat, and can harm the cervical spine (in displacing the vertebrae) if the dog jumps into the leash. There has been extensive research done in the last years by Anders Hallgren among others (don't know if there's an English translation). Results are pretty terrifying. Considering that even a simple collar can do harm (which is not surprising as the dog's spine isn't constructed to be lead by the throat), I would never consider a prong- even if used carefully, a dog is not 100% predictable and I couldn't guarantee that jumping in the leash could never occur.
But that's JMHO! []

For those folks who are unable to control their dogs on a flat collar OR on a harness, and can't find a "suitable" harness to fit, the prong is certainly a better choice than a choker.  The slight discomfort from a prong, if the dog is kept on a SHORT lead WILL prevent them from pulling and allow the owner to teach leash manners that will stick.
 
I personally prefer to train off lead or on a drag line now that I have discovered just how effective that method is.  Many folks here suggest teaching heal off lead and now I fully understand the reasoning behind this.  While the prong helped Thor to learn appropriate on-lead behavior did not include pulling me down the street on my butt, working off lead really turned his leash manners golden.
 
We all learn from our dogs and hopefully as we learn we evolve and find better and easier ways to train.  However, when nothing else does work, there are tools available to us that we should not be made to feel embarrased to use.
 
Coming to an internet forum with a holier than thou attitude....well, not only doesn't it win friends, it surely doesn't influence people to change their minds or their methods.

"Sally does not "self-correct" on a prong (or a Halti, she has learned to pull through it), if she pulls, and is not corrected, she just pulls steadily harder, which WILL cause her to become desensitized.  Personally, I'd rather not have that. "
 
I don't think prongs are a good choice for retraining a dog who pulls steadily-- I suggest an easywalk harness for such dogs, or just using "be a tree" methods plus off-leash heel work. Prongs work wonderfully well for dogs who tend to lunge at distractions in between episodes of walking nicely. Dog lunges, hits prong points, and is self-corrected. And, as Glenda says, if you let the dog lunge hard enough or build up enough speed running to hit the end of a long leash, you may get damage. As you will if you "correct" the dog. If you find yourself tempted to apply a leash-correction to a prong collar, don't. Take it off and look for a better solution.  Haltis don't offer any kind of "self-correction" and no dog should ever be allowed to pull hard on one or be yanked by one, you will damage the dog's neck.
 
And you can't just assume the tool will re-train the dog by itself. You have to also work with and reward the dog for walking nicely.
 
I don't think anyone should be upset about using appropriate re-training tools when necessary. It's dangerous for you and your dog and anyone you may meet for your dog to be able to drag you around by the leash. My dogs tend to out-weigh me and could probably tow a large truck along behind them if they so desired. I always have them on easywalk harnesses when we go out on leash, just in case. I would not hesitate to use a prong if I felt it was appropriate-- don't currently have a dog who needs such a tool. I wish I'd known about for a certain dog we had in the past, though. We really damaged her neck trying to control her on a choker. I don't hesitate to put a nose-chain on certain horses before leading them. Safety first.

As I said throughout this whole thread- everybody must decide for her/himself. []
If that's "holier than thou" I'm glad to be "holier than thou". []

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

"Sally does not "self-correct" on a prong (or a Halti, she has learned to pull through it), if she pulls, and is not corrected, she just pulls steadily harder, which WILL cause her to become desensitized.  Personally, I'd rather not have that. "

I don't think prongs are a good choice for retraining a dog who pulls steadily-- I suggest an easywalk harness for such dogs, or just using "be a tree" methods plus off-leash heel work. Prongs work wonderfully well for dogs who tend to lunge at distractions in between episodes of walking nicely. Dog lunges, hits prong points, and is self-corrected. And, as Glenda says, if you let the dog lunge hard enough or build up enough speed running to hit the end of a long leash, you may get damage. As you will if you "correct" the dog. If you find yourself tempted to apply a leash-correction to a prong collar, don't. Take it off and look for a better solution.  Haltis don't offer any kind of "self-correction" and no dog should ever be allowed to pull hard on one or be yanked by one, you will damage the dog's neck.

And you can't just assume the tool will re-train the dog by itself. You have to also work with and reward the dog for walking nicely.

I don't think anyone should be upset about using appropriate re-training tools when necessary. It's dangerous for you and your dog and anyone you may meet for your dog to be able to drag you around by the leash. My dogs tend to out-weigh me and could probably tow a large truck along behind them if they so desired. I always have them on easywalk harnesses when we go out on leash, just in case. I would not hesitate to use a prong if I felt it was appropriate-- don't currently have a dog who needs such a tool. I wish I'd known about for a certain dog we had in the past, though. We really damaged her neck trying to control her on a choker. I don't hesitate to put a nose-chain on certain horses before leading them. Safety first.

 
We are actually considering an Easy Walk harness.  Sally walks on a loose leash now (we do the thing where when they are not paying attention you change directions) when there are few distractions, but as soon as the distractions pile up, she starts pulling.

If it does slip around, especially the part on the back, it doesn't fit correctly. it can't slip up too high when the strap between the legs is correctly adjusted, but it can move around if the rest doesn't fit.

Ah! Mine are not as adjustable as the ones that you have. Mine are simple, standard, nylon harnesses. The neck and chest are adjustable. Nothing else.

Yes, I tried it again, and it ended up in my dog's eye. LOL. I was just making sure I hadn't lost it. I adjusted the straps, rather snug, hooked the harness to the front, and told her, "Ok" so she'd try to pull (yeah that probably wasn't nice, now that I think about it). Harness by eyeball. Both dogs.

He's an APBT. Completely docile with no trace of a fear biter in him.

 
Even a docile Pit is a strong dog, and if they pull while on a slip collar, it can do damage to the larynx.  With a prong, you run the risk of actually making him less than docile.  My suggestion would be a Gentle Leader, or, if he is manageable on an Easy Walk Harness, use that.  If you choose the GL, be sure you watch the training video carefully, or get a positive trainer to explain its use, so that you are using it correctly.  Both items can be found at [linkhttp://www.premierpet.com]www.premierpet.com[/link] if you want to check them out.  Please also understand that your docile Pit may not always be - some of them do develop some dog aggression as they get older.  I hope yours does not - the best insurance against that is lots of training & socialization (in safe settings), and early neutering, before the age of sexual maturity.

does not - the best insurance against that is lots of training & socialization (in safe settings), and early neutering, before

 
on my staffie i am using a sporn halter... it works great, we adopted her at 4yrs, and it was obvious that she had never been told not to pull...
 
so we got the sporn halter... she first thought it was some type of punishment, but she has gotten used to it, if she pulls, she has to stop because it tightens around the legs a bit... i think it is great....