Choker vs Harness

I really don't mean to butt in but my 120lb doberman/lab mix Rocky has a choke chain and he never pulls or when he does he stops right away and he never gasps yes i know that they can be harmfull but I've never hurt my dog with one.

I use a prong collar for my male Shiba Inu, Tonka, he is a horrible puller, and would not listen to a choke collar.  You never try and walk a Shiba on a flat collar,  unless you don't want a Shiba any more, LOL.  I tried a harness but he pulled and the no-pull harness made no difference since he walks head down anyway.  I also tried a Haltie, he hated it so much he would dig at his face until he bled weather we were on a walk or not, I would pull the Haltie out an dhe would hide under the bed.  So I went to the pinch or prong collar he sees it and gets all happy he doesn't pull and will actually heal on command.  He was a show dog and will gait if on a show collar, but not outside. 
I only suggest using a prong collar as a last resort, and then only if you have a trainer to teach you how to use it properly. 
The down side to the Haltie is that a lot people will think it is a muzzle, people always did with my Chow Chow, they would cross the road because she is in a muzzle, umm OK.  You also have to  have a collar that you can attach the leash to as well because some dogs can slip out of the haltie.

As I understand it tho that is how a prong or any other training tool is supposed to be used.  So what you are saying is that yet again, people are misusing a training tool and just slapping them on and using them for the balance of the dogs life.
 
I NEVER issued a leash correction with a prong, nor did I let him lunge to the end of the lead and "self correct" is such a way that would be painful.  And it took a bit longer than a few weeks, and for a bit I did put it on when we were going to be in crowded situations......however, just like the tools I keep in the workshop, a prong is NOT an every day thing to use.  I don't NEED a hammer or screwdriver every single day, but they sure come in handy when I do need them......same with the prong.  It's a training tool that should be used to TEACH the dog proper leash manners and be done with it.
 
I'm not big and muscle bound either and have in fact had five upper body surgeries that have seriously compromised my strength.  I'm not a trainer either, but I can still walk three german shepherds at a time with NO pulling.  Not long ago I took three into the little village where I
 live...the vet is right in the village itself...not a pull, not a problem.  Now I imagine some folks might have been just a bit leary seeing someone my size with THREE shepherds who combined, clearly outweighed me, but, it just flat out was not a problem.  No prongs, nothing but flat collars....and these are my younger boys.  Not one of them has EVER worn a prong.
 
My feeling is, this is a tool that should be used with the same caution one would use with a table saw and then put aside once it's job is done......

You're right, Glenda, for a few weeks on an adult dog that doesn't pull on the lead it's okay. But when the dog doesn't pull anyway, I don't see the need for a prong.

Ruffian- have you tried a front-attach harness?

For goodness sakes, I'm not a moron or someone who wants to make my dog look tough.  I used the darned prong BECAUSE THOR PULLED and at 93 pounds he could literally pull me off my feet and make me do sidewalk skids on my butt.
 
Again, my understanding was that using the prong as a training tool, with the goal of TEACHING dogs not to pull so you could use a flat collar and not get pulled off your feet, was the correct and proper way to use a prong.  I can't imagine anyone feeling the need to use one indefinately.  And, I never said it took three or a few weeks.  More like a few months.

My friend has a pair of GSDs who do outweigh me by a good 35 pounds. She can walk them fine, but she doesn't feel comfortable with ME walking them, unless they're on their prongs. She was out of town this weekend, so I was the one caring for them, and walking them. Those dogs are quite happy to see their prongs come out. They know JENNIES WALKING US YAY!!!!  I'm *not* strong enough to hold on if 75 pound Angel sees a bunny and decides to dash in a flat collar. In a prong, she won't dash. She's got quite a prey drive[]

I don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with a prong used as a training tool and occasional help on a dog that has no issues.

BTW, we measured (together, because neither of us loves the prongs) Angel and Wolfie, and ordered Easy Walks for them (those wonderful front attaching harnesses). Nobody could make the harnesses fit them. Not a trainer, not a store owner, nobody. They just don't fit some dogs.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

BTW, we measured (together, because neither of us loves the prongs) Angel and Wolfie, and ordered Easy Walks for them (those wonderful front attaching harnesses). Nobody could make the harnesses fit them. Not a trainer, not a store owner, nobody. They just don't fit some dogs.

Yup, that's why I use great fitting regular harnesses and attach the leash on the front ring. No dog can pull with a really fitted harness that has the leash attached in front. The pulling force turns the dog towards the handler. It even works with a long leash that's dragging on the floor (which drags from the front ring between the legs back to you then).
Glenda, it's okay if you feel you need a prong. Everybody decides for him/herself. I don't see a reason to use one, as I can walk any dog (and I'm 120 lbs and talking of for example a very unruly Landseer with 160lbs and over) with a harness that fits and has the leash attached in front. I don't want to argue with you- you do as you please of course- I just go another route. []

Tonka is one of those dogs that knows the difference between collars.  He was taught while being showen that when in his show collar was on he gaited and walked and never sat, so he still wont if he has the show collar on.  I put a  harness on him he wants to pull because for winter exercize they would pull a sled with my son or groceries in it, when they were much younger of course. 

The biggest thing with Tonka is that he likes to dart about in front and behind and all around and if he is on anything but the prong he will not pay attention to the distance from me, set off at a dead run and flip himself upside down from the force of his run.  With a prong on he will go to the end of the lead adn stop he pays attention, not because he has ever done that with the prong, but he can feel it tighten up.

I dont use the prong collar even daily either I would say like monthly, when we are going to walk downtown to the store, I always have a second collar, a martingale, so I can tie him up while we run into 7-11 or if we detour for a walk in the park then he is switched to the martingale there as well.  I think the walks are for him so I let him have his full distance as much as possible, but he needs to pay attention to me if we are walking where there is traffic. 
 
I do want to add that as he is getting older, almost 9 he is puling less due to his age and uses the prong less and less, and when the time comes he will use only a harness for walks like my girl Ruffian does now that she is older.  we use martingale type collars for the pee walks and flexies, and the harness and rpong for the long public walks, also for stores.

Janmandy am I speaking in a language you don't understand?  Or are you deliberately being obtuse?
 
I said, I used a prong as a training tool and now I am able to walk my large dog on a flat collar thanks to using the prong for a short period of time to TRAIN him to leash manners.  In what way is that statement so darned incomprehensible?
 
You said that in a matter of a couple weeks the skin will toughen and the prong will be ineffective.  I did NOT find that to be the case, but perhaps that is because I used the darned thing correctly.
 
Got one, got trained in how to use one, used it to accomplish a goal, since it is ONLY a training tool and not a forever collar, put it away and now walk my confirmed puller on a regular flat collar.  Without pulling.
 
I don't NEED a harness of any kind to walk my puller, or any of my other dogs.  And I have six german shepherds and walk them three at a time.  All in flat collars.  With NO pulling.

 

CLOSE WINDOW
 
This is like the type of harness I use. I use to use a choker chain but since buying this I have total control and he is better behaved, no pulling and he walks along side me not infront. The best thing I ever brought. Since getting this I no longer like chokers as they can be dangerous if not used properly and I now know these are better. thats my opinion since I have experience with both. Even my other half who has always used chokers to train couldn't beleive the difference in behaviour with me walking the dog.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Janmandy am I speaking in a language you don't understand?  Or are you deliberately being obtuse?

I said, I used a prong as a training tool and now I am able to walk my large dog on a flat collar thanks to using the prong for a short period of time to TRAIN him to leash manners.  In what way is that statement so darned incomprehensible?

And all I said is that if it's your opinion that you needed a prong, that's totally fine with me, so there isn't really a reason to get so heated about this.[] The only thing I said was that I never needed one with any dog regardless of the breed I ever trained. I like to accomplish goals in a different way then you. No need to get cranky! [8D]

Sigh.  I am NOT cranky.  I could SHOW you cranky if you'd like......
 
I'll not go into the entire explanation again as to why we reached a point of feeling the need for a prong...been there, done that......suffisive to say it was use a prong or quit walking him.  Because of a number of surgeries, I am not able to take the abuse of a pulling animal.  The Easy Walk harness was NOT available then and even if it HAD been, the early models didn't fit GSD's properly...that's since been corrected.  And I did look many places for a harness with a front ring...couldn't find one anywhere, including on the internet.
 
Great for you that you've never needed a prong.  That's wonderful.  But is that supposed to make you a better person than I am?  A better trainer?  So be it....since I never claimed to be a trainer.  But I assure you that I did not wake up one day and say "gosh, I think I'll go buy something that looks like an instrument of torture and slap it on the old boy".
 
Oh, and for what its worth?  According to a respected trainer, it takes YEARS for the skin on a dogs neck to toughen to a prong.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Sigh.  I am NOT cranky.  I could SHOW you cranky if you'd like......

I'll not go into the entire explanation again as to why we reached a point of feeling the need for a prong...been there, done that......suffisive to say it was use a prong or quit walking him.  Because of a number of surgeries, I am not able to take the abuse of a pulling animal.  The Easy Walk harness was NOT available then and even if it HAD been, the early models didn't fit GSD's properly...that's since been corrected.  And I did look many places for a harness with a front ring...couldn't find one anywhere, including on the internet.

Great for you that you've never needed a prong.  That's wonderful.  But is that supposed to make you a better person than I am?  A better trainer?  So be it....since I never claimed to be a trainer.  But I assure you that I did not wake up one day and say "gosh, I think I'll go buy something that looks like an instrument of torture and slap it on the old boy".

Oh, and for what its worth?  According to a respected trainer, it takes YEARS for the skin on a dogs neck to toughen to a prong.

I really wonder why you feel the need to justify yourself like that. Nobody attacked you. Makes me wonder if you really feel okay with having used a prong, although a regular harness with the possibility to attach the leash on the front ring was readily available to you (EDITED to say that almost all harnesses have a V-front with a ring- if not you can have one attached).
It's a personal decision to use aversives or not. Nobody here attacked you for choosing aversives.

ORIGINAL: glenmar



Oh, and for what its worth?  According to a respected trainer, it takes YEARS for the skin on a dogs neck to toughen to a prong.

Um, a trainer (and respected or not) has no medical background and doesn't have the possibility to do scientific research on this.

For what I've seen, if a dog's neck has desesitized to the prong collar, then the prong collar was used excesively and incorrectly.
Like many people I used to put chokes on my dogs and I thought that the prong was medieval, until I started reading a few studies and talked with several trainers. I have yet to use either one with my current dog, he uses either a flat collar or a martingale in some cases. I tried the gentle leader for a while but as someone said here, he would just drive his face into the ground hoping to scrape it off.

I've found that the best way to get him to stop pulling is to convince him that it's way more fun to stay close to me, wether it's praise, food or a toy. Of course, sometimes, more often than I'd like to admit, all this possitive re-inforcement is not half as attractive to him as another dog/cat/squirel/ball, hence the martigale. My dog right now is 9 months and he's just under 120 lbs., so he's at an age where he is still VERY playful and very easily distracted, but that energy combined with his weight, well....it can be a handful sometimes. All I can say is training training training.

I forgot to mention, whatever route you decide to go PLEASE consult with a professional. You'll need more information than you're aware of at this point to make things work.