prong?

I really wanted to stay out of this, but I don't want any lurkers misled. 
 
The prong collar is a pain based training device.  You can call it discomfort, irriation, correction, adversive, what ever you want.  But it is pain that causes the dog to redirect, the rest is semantics.
 
I am not saying that this is wrong, but lets be honest about it.
 
 

there is some people that take pet ownership way to far

 
Apparently, you aren't one of those.  What do you consider "too far"?  If you think my dogs are spoiled because they are happily trained with gentle methods, eat Innova, and get to go to the ice cream stand once in a while for a scoop of vanilla, well...I guess I'm taking pet ownership too far.
 
Originally, dogs were not bred to serve us - they started hanging out with us so we could serve them our leftovers, if you believe the wolf at the campfire theory.  If you assume that one species is servile to another, you automatically are saying that they are below us.  That's the nature of servitude. If you say that a species works *with* us, whether it's our idea or theirs, that's cooperation.  Big diff.
 
At any rate, I agree with Mic's assessment that the prong collar is a pain-inducing piece of equipment, whether you regard it as 1 or 2, 6, or 10 on the pain scale.  The object is to cause enough pain so that the dog backs off and doesn't pull against the collar.  The reason you see so many Labs just continuing to pull is that the breed is generally pain-insensitive.  Put a different dog in the same collar and you might get instant response, or real fright.  But, in both cases, the collar works by the dog avoiding an aversive stimulus.  I contend that, with a puppy, or even an untrained adult, you should try to build a good relationship and manage the pulling with a more humane device while you train polite leash walking.  Many people son't want to spend a lot of time training, so they just go for whatever gives them instant control over the dog.  But, just because a dog is large or rambunctious does not mean that the first thing you try should be a pain inducing device (and I beg to differ with anyone who thinks that a prong is pain free - it just doesn't choke the dog like a slip collar does, but the prongs are there to make a point).
I have one client who is over 75 years old and walks a rambunctious Great Dane on a Gentle Leader, another elderly couple who have a Bernese Mountain Dog walking politely on an Easy Walk Harness.  I think it's a shame that people don't try those options first before going with metal...the funny part is that when they do, they often tell me that it's the best purchase they ever made.  Granted, not for every dog, but IMO we should be trying pain-less before pain-ful.  I am amazed that dog lovers would even want to argue that last point.
 
Glenda, I agree that high up on the neck is not the place I usually fit a prong.  If I am going to try one on a particular dog, which is itself rare, I prefer the midpoint of the neck, and generally agree with Suzanne Clothier on that point.  I also agree with her that the best "leash" is the connection we make with our dogs from heart to heart.  Sometimes, I take dogs in my classes, and I get them to walk with me in about five seconds.  Why?  Because I am fun, talkative, interesting, and have liver!!!!  Their owners, by contrast,  are dull, yanking on their leashes, and refuse to use anything more exciting than a milkbone in a room full of roast beef.  No wonder their dogs want to go home with someone else.  Not saying that the dogs have to get those things all the time, but we are teaching them to enjoy hanging with the humans.  Once they learn it, we can be intermittent with our rewards, but in the beginning, things should be gentle, but loads of fun - for the dog and us!  When owners feel less self-conscious and "get it", they are often very happy to see that their dogs really want to come along for that not-quite-so-boring walk.
 
 

My bad, I didn't realize that the pup in question was a Ridgie.
 
If I were you I would use the gentlest method possible.  Everything I've read and heard from those that own and breed Ridgies, they are sensitive dogs and that needs to be taken into consideration.  I have heard a number of people say that their dogs have shut down or flat out resisted many "traditional" methods.  You cannot train them like a GSD or other working breed.
 
It's not that I think prongs are evil--my pittie wears one.  However, I would try to go as gentle as possible with your guy.  I would try teaching him to loose leash walk without a special collar, but if that is impractical it might be better to have him in a halti or easy walk.  He might grow out of it, but they really are not THAT expensive, and it might be better for him mind in the long run.

Did I say anything to you spiritdog did your name come up in that last post I made. Any ways how did this post end up about you and how much you take care of your dogs. My dogs are well trained dogs too in schutzhund, herding, a little agility and my dogs eat raw. And up high is where I place a prong collar. Like or not that is my choice and a choice for alot of people that I know that own dogs.

Did I say anything to you spiritdog did your name come up in that last post I made

 
Geez, who cares if you didn't mention me?  I'm a member here with posting privileges, and I don't recall breaking any of idog's rules with my last post.  If you don't want to be quoted or responded to, then don't post. []

Same goes here.

"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person."

 
Well, at least we agree on one thing.  [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

Yes we can spiritdogs  []

This has just gotten ridiculous. I've got two big dogs. Trained well, but they're still young and have their moments. The prong collars work great. You're supposed to set them high on the neck. If you do this, you need very little correction to get the dog's attention. Putting them low on the neck causes you to have to pull harder, which is the only way you're going to get their attention if it's sitting low.

The problem with this or any dog training forum is that you're going to have people that cannot make a distinction between humans and dogs. They think that if something hurts us, it must hurt the dog. I've seen my two wrestle around like maniacs biting each others' necks, yet they don't scream in pain. Weird. Could it be that it's because dogs have tougher skin around their necks and it's not easily punctured like a human's would be? No! I'm sure it can't be that. (please note sarcasm). What about cattle prods? Are they dangerous to cows? Cows couldn't possibly have thick skin, could they?

Look, these people let their dogs sleep in their beds, feed them ice cream, etc. and only want to be one of the pack, instead of the leader of the pack. Their dogs own them, not the other way around. But they seem happy, so who cares. Some people lead. Some don't.

You're not going to win an arguement with them, because there's no base to any of their arguements other than "oh, it looks so spikey, it must hurt poor fido!"

If these were dangerous (if used correctly, of course) PETA and their band of freaks would have billboards all over town about them and Pet Stores wouldn't carry them, for fear of lawsuits. But instead we get Pam Anderson's boobs and the stores have them in stock.

It's about using common sense. Prong collars weren't designed by an auto maker or a carpenter. They were designed by a person that works with dogs all the time and probably loves them very much. They work well and they don't hurt dogs if you use them right.

Dogs are smart. If they hurt so badly, my dogs wouldn't run around like lunatics getting excited about a walk when I grabbed them. Nor would anyone else's.

Use them if you want. Or don't if you don't want to. But please don't pull a "holier than thou" routine because you wouldn't want one used on you. Enjoy your trip to Haagen Daaz with Rover if you want, but don't act like you know what it's like to be a dog. You may work with them a lot, but you're not one, so you really have no clue. If a dog is wrestling with it's litter, and something hurts, it yelps, which is their sign that it went too far. Dogs don't yelp when on prong collars.

Common sense, please.

Humans are humans. Dogs are dogs. Prong collars were designed for a reason, and they work. And if they constantly hurt dogs, there would be a rash of lawsuits in our sue happy society. But there aren't.

If you got offended, I don't care. Enjoy your ice cream, hemp blouses and Burning Man festival with your trusty companion.

My dogs and I are having a great time with our prong collar walks.

So, allowing your dog to sleep on the bed and giving them ice cream means you have no idea how to deal with dogs?
 
No, don't worry, you don't seem self-rightous at all (that was sarcasum, in case you missed it).
 
How is what YOU just said any different than anything else that those that dislike prongs has said--other than the fact that it makes you looks like one of those holier-than-thous that you moan about?
 
And this is coming from a prong-user......

1. If you let your dogs sleep with you, feed them ice cream, etc., you still may know how to deal with dogs. Just not as a pack leader. Your dogs don't respect you. You're one of them. If that floats your boat, fine with me. In nature, dogs have a pack leader that doesn't coddle them, and you are not their leader. You can't change the laws of nature. Even with a lot of hugs and ice cream (which, by the way, their digestive system isn't wired to be able to take. Processed sugars are horrible for them. So you're actually taking years off of their life).

2. Call me self-rightous all you want. If being right means I'm self-rightous, that's fine with me. I guess I'm self-rightous. I said they work and they don't cause pain based on easily proven facts (no lawsuits, no yelping, no cowering when they see the collar, etc). The arguement against them is that they "look soooooo mean" and that means that they must hurt.

I know the difference between humans and dogs. Some of you don't. Somebody comes on here asking about prong collars, and a good number of you try and scare them from using them by saying that they hurt the dog, when in reality, if you knew as much about dog behavior as you say you do, you know that the dogs would very clearly let you know if it was painful.

I care about my dogs by training them to behave without hurting them, feeding them only things designed for their digestive system, and being the pack leader that they crave in the wild.

Others care about their dogs by living as one of them and feeding them food that's clearly not good for their kidneys, liver, etc. Even in small amounts.

Common sense/facts vs. emotion.

Common sense prevails every time.

My dog knows that it is my bed.  She comes up when invited and gets off when she is commanded to.  She gets dog ice cream and doesn't eat it until told that she is allowed.  We do practice NILIF in our house. 
 
It's interesting, because the poster you are refering to is an experienced dog trainer that does a number of things with her dogs, including therapy work.
 
When I say you are self rightous I do not mean that you are right, it is a nice way of saying that you are being a horses rearend.

I'm not the leader, but my two year old Jack Russell can heal with NO leash, with distractions. I'm not the leader, but if I call out, "Sit" while she's stuffing her face, she stops eating to sit, and give me her attention. I'm not the leader, but I can call her off of a running rabbit, and she's never *seen* a shock collar. She sleeps in bed with me. She's had ice cream. Tonight, she ate some of my stir fried veggies, from my plate.

According to YOU (BTW, a few of the folks commenting here are behaviorists and trainers with years of experience), my dogs don't respect me, because I choose to do things that I enjoy with them. I can't believe that. It'd be insane of anyone who'd seen either of my dogs with me to say that they don't have respect for me. You're a brand new poster, and you're tearing into experienced dog people who you could possibly learn a great deal from. Maybe you should slow down, and take some time to listen.

BTW, most dogs don't show pain outwardly. The terriers, in particular, hide pain well. Historically, if an animal showed weakness, it didn't survive. Their instincts tell them to be tough. 

I noticed that you never said I was wrong though. You may not like me, but I'm still right. I've got plenty of friends, anyway.

That poster I'm referring to says that prong collars hurt dogs, yet has no basis for saying that. I never said that other methods didn't work. Some do. But I also said that prong collars don't hurt the dog.

She, along with many other posters think that because something would hurt a human, it must hurt a dog. I don't agree with empty logic. I like to use common sense instead.

I've never heard a dog yelp when a prong collar was snapped correctly and most dogs get excited when they see it because it means that they go on a walk. If these walks were painful, they wouldn't probably get too excited.

But that's just my common sense speaking out again. Sometimes I can't control it. Sorry.

I'm an experienced trainer too, as I've successfully trained all my dogs, and I've included the use of prong collars. Have I trained hundreds? Nope. Just because she's trained many dogs without a prong collar doesn't mean that they're cruel.

But she and others "know" they are.

Can dogs be trained without them? Sometimes they can. But she can't say that they're cruel, because the dogs say otherwise with their actions. Nor can anyone else on this board. In fact, she may have been able to save some of her clients' money and time if she just opened her mind a little, and used common sense. She may have gotten a faster or better result with a stubborn dog.

See how this common sense thing works? You'll get it. I know you will.

Calling me a horses arse doesn't bother me one bit. If you don't like me because I called someone on their faulty logic, that's your prerogative. I just don't like when people explain their views on this "horrible torture device" and call it wrong, when they use no logic.

Call me what you want. I've got pretty thick skin. (Not as thick as a dog's, mind you. I hear their thin is pretty thick.)

My points for them, one last time:
1. Dog's normally don't yelp when a prong collar is snapped incorrectly.
2. There isn't a rampant campaign agains the use of them by PETA or any other similar organization.
3. If they had injured a rash of dogs, there would have been many lawsuits and stores wouldn't carry them for fear of being sued.
4. Dog's get excited when they see them because they know they're going on a walk. If walks always hurt, they'd be considerably more concerned about them.

Points made against them so far:
1. They look mean.

Common sense: 3    Emotion: 0

And stating the truth, just because I may offend someone, doesn't make me a horse's arse. It just makes me honest. Some people don't like honesty, because it shows them that they may not know everything.

And you're still killing your dog with ice cream, whether she waits to eat it or not.