prong?

And being a brand new poster doesn't have a thing to do with my knowledge about what works. It just means that I haven't sat in front of a computer spouting off about how my way is the only way and other things don't work.

The way I figure it is that a normal post takes an average of 5 minutes. 5 minutes times 1300 posts  equals right around four and a half 24 hour days of nothing but posting.

Wow. That's if you posted around the clock.

I've got more enjoyable ways to spend my days. I just check in from time to time.

There's a lot of good advice. But there's a lot of crap too.         

My goodness, this thread certainly has taken a turn for the ugly.
 
I have SIX german shepherds.  They are allowed on the furniture, including my bed, but by invitation.  And if I want them to get off, they do.  Immediately.    They eat a number of good for them things, including homecooked and raw and Innova, and yep, they have been known to get ice cream on occassion.  Most often tho they get homemade frozen treats.
 
I will say it...you are wrong. 
 
I AM the leader of my pack and they are very well aware of that.  I have THREE who have earned their CGC awards and the younger two are going to be working on theirs soon.  If I say QUIET, there is silence, if I say SIT, butts hit the floor.  I can take any one of my dogs out offleash in the country and KNOW that they will come the first and only time that I call.  Alternately, I can take all SIX at the same time and still command the same RESPECT.  But, yep, they are family members and accorded the treatment that family members deserve.
 
And thankfully, the post counts got screwed up recently so you can't point to MINE....the real one is rather high.
 
Now, for those of you who wish to continue to be ugly, be advised that the administration is watching this thread.  There are limits to just how unpleasant one can be without being slapped on the hand for it.
 
Oh, and, for what its worth, I have used a PRONG, placed lower on the neck and WITHOUT leash corrections.  Took very little time, after trying every other method and really devoting a great deal of time to gentler methods for my lughead to figure out that I got to call the shots on walks.

If you would read carefully, I DO use a prong on my dog.
 
I do take issue with your claim that just because someone uses a training method other than your own that they are obviously not a "pack leader" and have no control over their dogs--that because they do this or that they are "hippies" that have no idea how to treat dogs like dogs.
 
If positive methods work for a dog, which they do for MANY, why do you feel the need to blast them?

In my posts, I never said that other training didn't work. Nowhere!

I said prong collars did, too.

And while there are all types of posts saying their cruel, that's all there has been. Just that "they're cruel". No disputing my points.

If you can point to any of my posts where I've blasted people for their training and said that it didn't work, I welcome it. You're reading what you want, and ignoring the rest.

I stated facts. People got offended. You've got great dogs. That's wonderful.

But don't sit there and say that prong collars are torture devices without anything refuting my points.

You said "I was wrong", but conveniently switched to something else. How am I wrong? Where? What?

Arguements require logic.

I'll just sit back and watch from time to time again. I just felt it necessary to call people on their posting information without anything to back it up. That's all. I don't feel the need to argue online with people who are looking to take offense and not admit that there might just be another way.

Your ways work too, but I never said they didn't . I know mine work, and I know my dogs have never had any kind of pain inflicted on them by me, even with the use of a dreaded prong collar.

Enjoy your forum.

I never said that prongs are cruel.
 
You were wrong in saying that people who let dogs on their beds and give them ice cream are NOT respected nor are they the leader. I did not comment on your training methods.  I did not say prongs are cruel, tortorous or anything else.
 
I have great dogs because I work my tail off to insure that I have great dogs.  And yep, if it takes a prong, by golly, so be it.  But as a course of action taken as a last resort.

None of us said we were feeding our dogs ice cream every day. That wouldn't be healthy at all. One small bowl of ice cream every six months isn't going to kill anybody, unless they have some sort of horrible allergy.

Prong collars DO work, I agree. Used properly, and with much care, they are NOT cruel. They DO inflict pain, or they wouldn't work. The whole reason we use them is that they stop most dogs dead in their tracks, and end pulling. Of course, you have dogs who will run, sometimes screaming, through invisible fences, over and over. If the dog is screaming, you can't say it's not in pain. Some will continuously run through, b/c there's something they want on the other side. It doesn't matter how much pain they have, they were bred to have DRIVE! Some people have dogs WAAAYY too drivey to be pets, and have no clue how to handle them. Obviously, you have a good idea of what works for yours (though I'd feel bad for any soft dog you ended up with, but maybe you don't tend to attract whacked out dogs like I do). Not everybody does. Slapping on a training tool without a clue as to how to use it is wrong, and can be cruel. I cringe every time I see somebody correct their dog with a leash snap to a head collar. When I see retractable leashes attached to prongs, chokes, and head collars, I could cry for the dogs. It's wrong. Of course, you're using your prongs in a much better way. You actively train your dogs.
 
You can't claim that there isn't pain, especially if you're giving leash corrections. Put that thing around your neck and give yourself a good pop. It's quite uncomfortable. I did it, when I bought my prong collar (that I've since stopped using, as it turned my dog into a snarling idiot). I snapped myself far harder than the dog would ever be snapped, but the reason I would have stopped when the leash ran out was b/c it got less and less pleasant as the prongs got tighter.  BTW, my dog slinks along the floor when she sees the prong, and I used it properly. She also slinks when I say, "Let's go to work". She hates being groomed. She's great on  the table, but she hates it. Incidentally, she loves the vet

ORIGINAL: gmca If these were dangerous (if used correctly, of course) PETA and their band of freaks would have billboards all over town about them and Pet Stores wouldn't carry them, for fear of lawsuits.

As a matter of fact, PETA is against prong collars.  Pet stores carry a lot of things that they shouldn't like puppymill puppies and crap dog food so clearly, getting a pet store to stop carrying chokes and prongs isn't feasible when so many people rely on them.

ORIGINALogs are smart. If they hurt so badly, my dogs wouldn't run around like lunatics getting excited about a walk when I grabbed them. Nor would anyone else's.

Yes, dogs are smart.  But if the dog rarely gets out for a walk, I think most would run around like lunatics about the prospect of a walk, even on a prong (I am sure this doesn't apply to anyone on the board, I am merely thinking of the many owners who do not use rongs appropriately or spend enough time with their dogs). 

ORIGINAL: Humans are humans. Dogs are dogs. Prong collars were designed for a reason, and they work. And if they constantly hurt dogs, there would be a rash of lawsuits in our sue happy society. But there aren't.

Prongs must inflict a certain amount of discomfort/pain, how or why else would they work or be called "self-correcting"? My dislike for prongs does not come from me not wanting one around my neck (although that is true enough).  They are too often used inappropriately by the inexperienced and/or used on fearful/shy/submissive and leash reactive dog's.  It is my opinion, that a true leader doesn't need to be forcefully aversive and rely on a prong to command respect. 

A prong was a wonderful thing for me and Maya.  I started training with treats, but she's not incredibly food motivated, especially outside.  I moved to a choke chain, but it was relatively ineffective.  The day I got the prong collar she turned into an angel.  I very rarely even have to give a correction anymore.

Ouch, Jetty, a true leader doesn't need a prong to command respect??   I don't agree that with Thor it was a lack of respect, just a headstrong young male who had training pretty well disrupted by life getting in the way.  I've used one with Shadow as well....and Shadow simply would get too excited on walks to control himself.  Sometimes a tool is needed to get a point across.  The gentler the tool the better, but I'd rather see someone using a prong than a choke chain.
 

Look, these people let their dogs sleep in their beds, feed them ice cream, etc. and only want to be one of the pack, instead of the leader of the pack. Their dogs own them, not the other way around. But they seem happy, so who cares. Some people lead. Some don't.

You're not going to win an arguement with them, because there's no base to any of their arguements other than "oh, it looks so spikey, it must hurt poor fido!"

 
 
You're right, this has gotten ridiculous.  I guess I'm not a leader 'cuz my dogs get vanilla ice cream on their birthdays and special occasions.  I must not be a leader because my dogs are probably just effortlessly coming when called, and doing everything else I ask, because they feel bad for me.  I am probably a mushball idiot anthropomorphizing jacka$$ because I prefer to train my dogs using food and a clicker than to immediately jerk them off their underpinnings with a slip collar just because someone else thinks I am not a leader without force or pain (even if we call it discomfort).  I guess you have been a dog in a past life, so you would know that info, but I certainly think that if the only way I can judge pain is on myself, it's better to just go with something more benign.  No, you will not win the argument with me.  I will always maintain that, even if you eventually choose to resort to stronger methods, you should BEGIN with the benign and work up, not the other way around. 
 
Stores have electronic collars in stock for sale to the general public, too, without one iota of concern that the public will often use them inappropriately.  It isn't about what's kind for the dogs - it'a about the profit motive.  If you judge everything by its legality for sale, then you miss the point that cigarettes cause lung cancer, alcohol can be dangerous, the nitrites in your bacon may cause cancer, and that all commodities need to be viewed with a modicum of caution. 
And if you think some dogs don't yelp on prong collars, you are sadly mistaken.  Maybe you are using yours properly, and that's good, but there are many ignorant humans out there who aren't, and I have seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. 
I have never told anyone not to use a prong if they need it.  What I have said is that it, just like any other device, should not be applied if something less forceful works.  To make that determination, you must first have tried the less forceful means.  What I don't understand is people's reluctance to do so.  They, and their dogs, might be pleasantly surprised.  And, if not, they can just keep doing what they were doing.
 
 
 

BTW, I can't help asking, how long do your dogs live?
I have two ice cream eating dogs that are 17.  Believe me, it doesn't form the bulk of their diets, but I think you shouldn't assume that people are hanging out at DQ all day with their dogs just because they get an occasional tiny scoop of vanilla [].
Three of my five have CGC and are registered therapy dogs.  One, my Yorkie, gets carsick very badly, so she was not tested, but knows all her basic commands.  My Aussie puppy, at age 7 months, has a 100% reliable recall, and knows all the commands that the others do, plus a few more tricks.  She is as herdy as they come, but will "leave it" for me, no matter what the "it" is!  My hound has a great recall, too, and was rescued at age 2, knowing nothing but his name and "sit" - and I changed his name.  My dogs all realize who the leader is, and as Glenda put it, they come up or off my furniture by invitation (my other requirement is that they know all their commands, and perform them reliably, before they get bed or couch privileges). 
My dogs are happy to come with me on a walk without any more control than a buckle collar, and at that, the leash is slack most of the time (deer poop is a big draw, but "leave it" works for that, too).
If you have to have a prong on, you are not leading, you are enforcing, or at the least insuring, even if you are doing it politely.  If you have read Glenda's posts in the past, you know that she resorted to this device because she has very big dogs and some physical limitations.  She uses her prongs kindly, which is fine.  I suspect that if her dogs got loose, they would still find her and not run off.
What I want from my own dogs is that if they should accidentally slip a collar, they will want to be with me anyway...you don't usually get that without leadership. 

OK! Now I'm getting confused here I thought this thread was about a six month old puppy and the owner wanting to know about using a prong collar on it. We are not getting know where nik picking one another about who is right who is wrong (dog ownership), who is a better pet owner and who isn't. Myself I don't agree using a prong collar on the puppy at that age. Put I am for a prong collar.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

BTW, I can't help asking, how long do your dogs live?
I have two ice cream eating dogs that are 17.

-Two years. Isn't that the normal life span? They always die of broken necks. It's weird. I figure their spine just gets brittle as they get older.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Stores have electronic collars in stock for sale to the general public, too

Have two of those too. My crazy dogs smelled some roast beef on the counter and grabbed it.

Once.

I'm all about efficient learning. When I was a kid, I burned myself on the stove. O

Once.

Only a slight burn too. Put an icecube on it and it was better.

Mom didn't have to work with me for months to teach me not to touch the stove. I figured out my limits pretty quickly. I knew if I touched it for longer it'd hurt more, so I didn't.

It's that whole crazy common sense thing.

Never burned myself again.

Gosh, I can leave raw stinky liver on the counter and mine leave it alone.  Of course, they were taught LEAVE IT without the use of electronic devises that are cruel when used in that way.  And mine know that if it ain't in their bowl, it's MINE.   All without aversives.
 
And FWIW, the administration is STILL watching this thread.