How to handle dog when it's gotten into "red zone"

ORIGINAL: Liesje

And this is so exhausting for owners/handlers, Anne! Not that I'm a wimp about it, but just saying, it is really hard for humans to be totally aware and prepared. I feel like a defensive driver (thanks to Driver's Ed) when I'm dealing with my male out and about.

It works. It really works, and it gets easier in time. Still--being totally prepared has not been the easiest thing for humans and I think that's why a quite correction seems so much more appealing--because having the eagle eye AND the physical quickness to manage things perfectly is very hard to do.

That said, I know of no other way than this way to manage and desensitize the dog to obtain reliability.

I agree with this sentiment, and not because I'm looking for an excuse not to pay attention, but because I have found that the more alert I'm trying to be, the more nervous and anxious I get, and the dogs feed of off this.  If I lighten up a bit, they tend to not even react to the stim I should have been concerned about if I was really focused on what might be a trigger or a threat.  I think that I do have to see the trigger before the dog, but don't necessarily have to react by hurridly moving the dog in another direction.  For example, if I'm walking a dog and see another approaching, if I was all hyped up on assessing potential threats, I'd get a bit nervous ("oh no, what's Fido going to do when this dog gets closer?  oh gosh..."), turn away, and the dog would most likely start pulling to resist me and get all worked up because I got all worked up.  Now, if I lighten up a bit, see the dog coming, and just cross the street in one fluid motion but still allow my dog to pass, they tend to glance at the other dog and then keep going along, no big deal, because it wasn't a big deal to me.  I'm not very good at having to be super aware and assume the worse on the inside while remaining calm and composed on the outside.  I'm either anxious, or I'm chill.  When I'm anxious, the dogs just get nippy and jumpy at every little thing.

Actually, you have just described exactly what should happen.  []

Absolutely agree, but I also know that obviously enough, not everyone is doing this because, yes, it takes work. It takes a lot of work. It's easier to give a quick leash pop (even a light one) and say, "No," to the dog than it is to manage the situation(s) at all times.

One of the things I do with Zeus, is practice some of the "get away" techniques that I would do if a  loose dog was around... so he doesn't always associate these maneuvers with a dog coming at him and go on red alert.

For no reason at all, I will break into a jog or a run, or just pick up the pace.
Zip around and quickly cross the street.
Turn abruptly and go the other way.
run for the truck and kennel up

At first he would continously glance around and look for a dog. No dog in sight.

Now he just assumes that it is some weird game that mom has thought up and thinks it is good fun.
Of course yaaay's and good boys are involved....then we resume whatever we were doing.

I agree with this sentiment, and not because I'm looking for an excuse not to pay attention, but because I have found that the more alert I'm trying to be, the more nervous and anxious I get, and the dogs feed of off this.  If I lighten up a bit, they tend to not even react to the stim I should have been concerned about if I was really focused on what might be a trigger or a threat.  I think that I do have to see the trigger before the dog, but don't necessarily have to react by hurridly moving the dog in another direction.  For example, if I'm walking a dog and see another approaching, if I was all hyped up on assessing potential threats, I'd get a bit nervous ("oh no, what's Fido going to do when this dog gets closer?  oh gosh..."), turn away, and the dog would most likely start pulling to resist me and get all worked up because I got all worked up.  Now, if I lighten up a bit, see the dog coming, and just cross the street in one fluid motion but still allow my dog to pass, they tend to glance at the other dog and then keep going along, no big deal, because it wasn't a big deal to me.  I'm not very good at having to be super aware and assume the worse on the inside while remaining calm and composed on the outside.  I'm either anxious, or I'm chill.  When I'm anxious, the dogs just get nippy and jumpy at every little thing.

That's great, JM. It's like defensive driving--if you're always aware and you have a game plan worked out then, when you need it, you got it and all looks effortless and feels effortless (for our furry friends), too.

Great post JM, I agree!

When I was dealing with leash aggression, what helped me was turning it into a game in my own head.

First, I took the pressure off myself by doing "real" walks in abandoned areas at super-off-times.

Then I set aside fifteen minutes each day to go for a Doghunt, and the whole goal was to play at finding the dogs before my dog did, and practice really serious walking-and-paying attention stuff, and that involved a lot of the same kinds of games you do.

Over time, this changed the orientation of a walk for my dog. Before it was all about what she could see and how she was on the prowl. But it became this activity with lots of little activities nested inside it that was just about us. And that was actually a beautiful transition for her. She was a very very intense, uncomfortable, drivey, crazy dog. And to see her start to **relax** because she finally had a structure was very rewarding.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Absolutely agree, but I also know that obviously enough, not everyone is doing this because, yes, it takes work. It takes a lot of work. It's easier to give a quick leash pop (even a light one) and say, "No," to the dog than it is to manage the situation(s) at all times.

How come saying "No" is such a bad thing?  Aren't you saying to the dog, choose another behavior and isn't that the same as not rewarding in Clicker Training when the dog doesn't offer the right behavior?  Please, draw the distinction for me.
 
Keep in mind Mudpuppy's comment "only the dog's subsequent behavior can tell you whether your behavior was perceived as a correction, a reward, or "just management" with no impact on subsequent behavior."

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Absolutely agree, but I also know that obviously enough, not everyone is doing this because, yes, it takes work. It takes a lot of work. It's easier to give a quick leash pop (even a light one) and say, "No," to the dog than it is to manage the situation(s) at all times.

How come saying "No" is such a bad thing? Aren't you saying to the dog, choose another behavior and isn't that the same as not rewarding in Clicker Training when the dog doesn't offer the right behavior? Please, draw the distinction for me.

Keep in mind Mudpuppy's comment "only the dog's subsequent behavior can tell you whether your behavior was perceived as a correction, a reward, or "just management" with no impact on subsequent behavior."

There is a point! []

How is that a point? I still don't get it, DPU. If my dog is pulling I say "Easy" and he stops. If he's barking I say "Quiet" and he stops. If's lunging at other dogs I say "Watch me" and he puts his eyes on my face.

Why would I say No? Oh, I've seen those people all sweaty and frustrated, saying "No no no no no no" over and over and popping the leash, pushing the dog into a sit, and then body blocking the dog from me walking by (which I don't mind a bit because there is something between their dog and mine). It cracks me up to watch, even though I feel bad.

My coworker has a truly "red zone" dog. That dog will kill another dog if she is able. She has nearly killed a couple of dogs already. To walk here, which he rarely does, he ensures she's on a harness, on a choke chain, and on a muzzle.

That dog wouldn't turn for a treat or listen to a frantic (or even an authoratative) "No!" if she were wearing earphones. When she sees another dog, she is gone already. She is untouchable.

So, they scan for dogs beforehand, have a plan of action in place, and away they go to walk her.

I hardly think our idea of a "red zone" is much like that dog's real-deal red zone.

I have no issues with people saying "No" all around me--to kids or dogs. I just don't see them being effective. That's all.

ETA--I don't see the distinction/connection to Clicker Training and "No." Call me slow, but I don't see anything there. What I mean is that I'd rather say, "Hey, do this instead" and not just say "No." And if I were to hit a "red zone" time with my dogs? I'm not going to try training them or correcting them. Too late for that at that particular time. I'm just going to get out of Dodge fast.

Hi nfowler,

Have you ever seen someone scream a meaningless stream of "leave it! leave it! leave it! leave it!"? []

If you train your dog that "no" means to sit and wave his right paw, the dog will sit and wave his right paw.
If you train your dog that "no" means stop doing that, and wait for further orders, your dog will stop and wait.
If you train your dog that "no" means don't do that, go figure out something else to do, your dog will stop and pick something else to do.

If a person learns only one thing from clicker training, I hope it is well-timed intentionality. Rewards based training and counter-conditioning systems teach us how to be clear about the specific and linked behaviors we are working for or against. Practicing clicker training teaches us good timing to communicate these intentions clearly to our dog.

She didn't say it was bad, she said it was easier.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Absolutely agree, but I also know that obviously enough, not everyone is doing this because, yes, it takes work. It takes a lot of work. It's easier to give a quick leash pop (even a light one) and say, "No," to the dog than it is to manage the situation(s) at all times.

How come saying "No" is such a bad thing?  Aren't you saying to the dog, choose another behavior and isn't that the same as not rewarding in Clicker Training when the dog doesn't offer the right behavior?  Please, draw the distinction for me.

Keep in mind Mudpuppy's comment "only the dog's subsequent behavior can tell you whether your behavior was perceived as a correction, a reward, or "just management" with no impact on subsequent behavior."

How come saying "No" is such a bad thing? Aren't you saying to the dog, choose another behavior and isn't that the same as not rewarding in Clicker Training when the dog doesn't offer the right behavior? Please, draw the distinction for me.

 
"No" is not a bad word, other than leading to nowhere but stop.
Commanding another behavior gives the dog something to do beside react to the situation and come up with their own action, which may be equally undesirable.
In clicker training, you are not stopping the rewards, but you can shape an offered behavior by waiting to reward until you have another piece of the chain. If you use offered behavior that is shaped into obedience, the dog has an even stronger motivation to comply because they know it will be reward with what they really like. If all struggles over territory, etc, boil down to who gets to eat what in what order, you circumvent that by being the source of treats.
 
But I think you already knew that. I can't imagine a shelter or org letting you foster without some basic knowledge of dogs and their training, etc.
 

ORIGINAL: nfowler
Why would I say No? Oh, I've seen those people all sweaty and frustrated, saying "No no no no no no" over and over and popping the leash, pushing the dog into a sit, and then body blocking the dog from me walking by (which I don't mind a bit because there is something between their dog and mine). It cracks me up to watch, even though I feel bad.

Ah... LOL. It cracks me up too, especially the bit about "sweaty and frustrated" NO-sayers...


[sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Absolutely agree, but I also know that obviously enough, not everyone is doing this because, yes, it takes work. It takes a lot of work. It's easier to give a quick leash pop (even a light one) and say, "No," to the dog than it is to manage the situation(s) at all times.

How come saying "No" is such a bad thing?  Aren't you saying to the dog, choose another behavior and isn't that the same as not rewarding in Clicker Training when the dog doesn't offer the right behavior?  Please, draw the distinction for me.

Keep in mind Mudpuppy's comment "only the dog's subsequent behavior can tell you whether your behavior was perceived as a correction, a reward, or "just management" with no impact on subsequent behavior."

 
What is the entire forum to think when this post is ignored in its entirety.

What's wrong, DPU? What's wrong? I don't understand what it is you're wanting here so you may need to be more clear or blunt. Do you want me to reply and answer you? Do you want Mudpuppy to? Or somebody else? What is it? There have been responses already, so I can only assume you mean for me to reply but I said what I said and I'm not sure what more you're looking for.  
 
Here's the issue as far as I can tell. You can say "No" when you want to. It's that easy. I don't find it effective because I have other words. Why say "No" when I mean "Wait" or "Freeze" or "Watch Me" or whatever else? I use other, specific words instead, like the ones I just popped in as an example. 
 
You shouldn't say "No" when training a dog with a clicker. You just ignore the behavior/action you aren't seeking. You hold back, let them figure it out and reward for the action you wanted. Without a lot of noise and talking going on, you're allowing your dog some quiet time to figure it out. And that works. (That last part, about being quiet while learning, is from me, not from some philosophy.)
 
There. You don't use it when teaching a new thing and you can use it for whatever else you need to in life, but if you know another word and have trained for it, then why use it? That's all I meant. If somebody wants to do as Ixas pointed out and use it for "Wait" then there it is--"No" can mean whatever you want it to mean. I just know lots of other words and so do my dogs and they use them. And rather than just get into a spot where I'm spewing out "No no no no no no!" like a hundred times in a row, I use a word that has a meaning behind it--like "Watch Me" instead. Because that's what I really want, right? If we're walking and they start to step into somebody's yard to pee (and I can tell because I'm watching them like a hawk the whole time) then I say, "Let's go" and away we go. I could say "No" but "Let's go" means something to them and it means let's keep walking and that's exactly what they do. I say, at other times, "Leave it" and bingo, they know that means to leave it alone and they do.  
Still not sure what I'm supposed to say here . . .

Oops--forgot to say that when there is a crisis coming around, nobody is learning--that's just about managing the situation. So, by that I mean, let's say you have a dog who's after other dogs when she goes on walks. She's searching high and low for other dogs. And then, voila, she sees one and she goes nuts.
 
I am saying by the time she goes nuts it's too late for a "No" or a "Yes" or a "Watch Me" to take place. That stuff all has to come way earlier, before she sees the dog, and when she sees the other dog from a distance.
 
That's what I meant by it being easier for the owner/handler. They freak out and they're only making themselves sweaty by trying to make their dog listen to them by yelling "No" a thousand times in a row, then giving leash pops, then spanks/swats, and then doing body blocks. Nobody walking around them cares, quite honestly, if they're making a point with their out-of-control dog. In fact, watching this "moment" take place is embarrassing enough for everyone. What people do care about it is ensuring that their out-of-control dog won't get free at any given moment, rip across the street, and dig into the other dog who is calmly minding his own business.
 
That's what I am saying. It's easier to stand there, though, and give corrections, then it is to be finding the other dog first, training where/when you can (before the so-called red zone hits) and changing walking directions/route to avoid getting your dog-aggressive dog all worked up. I hear this a lot: "Well, she needs to learn that I'm the boss" and "I need the walk, too, though." So, what options does that leave the dog-aggressive dog's owner? To sit and try and deal with their dog freaking out on a walk since they didn't go out of their way to ensure their dog didn't see anything to get worked up over.