Clicker = training???

well I am having a good time.  My dogs are having an even better time.

And no, things are not always in my control.

But that is the fun of it...giving up control and allowing.  (sounds new agey I know)

Getting the pom to "paw" has been an amazing feat, but I work with what he gives me, until he figures it out himself.

Today we worked on it and have graduated to me not having the ball in my fist and him touching that, to him just touching my fist.

To me, that is what it is all about.  The dog figuring it out himself.

It's all a big jigsaw puzzle to the dog.  What piece goes where and how to do I get it there?

 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Other disciplines seem to want only to extinguish undesired behaviors-but not replace them with anything.   

I dont understand why you have to replace it with anything

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

It seems to me that this method quashes and actually represses the dog's sentience and ability to make decisions on it's own.

And why that method would repress the dog's ability to make decisions on it's own? as far as i know, if the dog stops that behavior then the dog can do absolutely anything he wants

Now IF you trained him to do somethng specific instead THATS when i think you are not letting your dog make his own decisions

ORIGINAL: espencer

 



I dont understand why you have to replace it with anything

 
I don't understand why you DON'T have to replace it with anything.  Explain more fully your point of view and perhaps you can enlighten us why "NO Behavior" is preferable to "Good Behavior."
 
Do you feel that a dog has no right to make it's own decision?  I mean you've got that cute little mop of a dog, sure you let her decide something.[]  Or do you?
 
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I don't understand why you DON'T have to replace it with anything.  Explain more fully your point of view and perhaps you can enlighten us why "NO Behavior" is preferable to "Good Behavior."

Do you feel that a dog has no right to make it's own decision?  I mean you've got that cute little mop of a dog, sure you let her decide something.[]  Or do you?

Ok here we go:

My dog jumps on the guest that came in, i do a correction and thats it, then my dog could do the following (without me telling her to do so):

a)Walks away = good behavior
b)Stays there quiet = good behavior
c)Lays down = good behavior
d)Sits = good behavior
e)Licks herself = good behavior
f)Basically anything she wants except being rude with the guest = good behavior

How come those could be "NOT behaviors", why a behavior HAS to be a behavior only if i tell her exactly what to do?

Isnt she making her OWN decisions by doing whatever she wants but being rude?

Now IF i showed her what to do instead (just like you suggest) isnt that actually avoiding the dog to make her own decisions???

I'm really confused [&:]

So the way I see it is that clicker training is used to train dogs to perform behaviors on cue.

I'm new to clicker training, but we click after the behavior to mark it and indicate that the dog is getting a reward.  We don't click to command or cue a behavior.  We all have different techniques for actually teaching the dog the command and getting him to execute the behavior; the clicker or word "yes" just marks the behavior onces it's been done as correct and reward-worthy.  So maybe I'm confused or getting side-tracked, but is there really one method of "clicker training"?

My dog jumps on the guest that came in, i do a correction and thats it, then my dog could do the following (without me telling her to do so):

So you never trained your dog not to jump on guests?[]

What is the cue that you give her to stop performing this behavior?

I'm sorry Xerxes, I'm not understanding your post.

Are you asking if people find it more fun to capture behaviors that are offered (like a ballerina sit vs just a sit) rather than insisting that the dog perform the obedience task?

Are you asking if people think that some training methods stop dogs from being creative, and do people advocate creativity in dogs?

Thanks for clarifying []

ORIGINAL: Liesje
So maybe I'm confused or getting side-tracked, but is there really one method of "clicker training"?

The clicker is used for different purposes. Here's a few methods for using it:

you can lure a reward, then click/treat to reinforce it,
you can capture a behavior that you didn't ask for, but that you like, by click/treating it
you can shape behavior, by luring or capturing it in increments and fine tuning it with click/treat markers

Generally verbal cues or hand signals are added after the desired behavior is reliably given for a number of c/t's. The idea is that the cue is meaningless untill it is attached to something (a behavior) that already has meaning. This is why you don't teach spin left and spin right in the same session,nor do you teach "spin" then "right" and "left", you teach each separately. You get the dog clear on the behavior, attach cue, then proof it.

Clicker is convenient for agility, for example, you can click when dog enters tunnel to mark the behavior, then you can treat when he gets out.

I think the thing you'll notice is that timing is huge. You don't actually click after the behavior, but during it, or even during a specific part of it. When starting with "come", you click when the dog first shows a sign of coming, like looking at you, shifting weight toward you, or actaully approaching you. You want to mark the moment he's enlisted himself to do what you ask, then build upon that. Again, in agility, you wouldn't click after the dog has come out of the tunnel, or when he's halfway through, you click him for entering it.

This also sets a limit to clicker training. Like Brookcove mentioned in one of her recent posts, when a dog is performing a complex set of behaviors simultaneously, the dog can't know which behavior is correct. The click is given to mark a discrete behavior. This is why I don't buy it as a means for solving so-called psychological issues, which are complex sets of behavior (ya, it's JMNSHO).

I don't know how this compares but it is what worked for us. We didn't clicker train not to jump on people because I didn't want to be carrying treats & clicker every time I left the house or to be carrying in groceries and have to stop, click, treat. My dogs were extremely experienced jumpers. DH always thought it was wonderful to be greeted with a "hug" when he came home and encouraged them lavishly until he finally agreed that one of the dogs had the potential of knocking his mother over and breaking her hip.
 
So...we asked for a sit. No sit, we don't enter the gate. If the sit wasn't continued, no greeting to the dogs. The most we ever did in the way of a correction was to place the hand over the top of the dog's head without touching it. If they jumped they jumped into a pat on the head which they don't care for. The reward was praise, petting and being greeted.
 
After the jumping extinguished itself, the dogs are no longer asked to do anything before getting their reward and are free to disperse their excitement in any positive way. For example, Tasha goes into play bows instead of jumping, Floyd runs in circles around the tree, etc.
 
 

Before we go down this road, it may be advisable for people who aren't really familiar with clicker training to fully read these links:
http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/642

Not sure where to post this, so I'll try it here. I just got through walking the dogs and I ran into a neighbor who told me she wanted to get a little dog and also that she's enthralled with CM's "SSST" for discouraging unwanted acts, like bolting out the door. I've taught my dogs to "Wait" with both the word and hand signal so I haven't had to hiss at them yet, but I got to thinking, as I walked on home, what the difference between the hiss and word really is.
 
Is there a difference? Really? Why hiss when you can use a word that works for lots of things--leash tied around a foot, my shoe needs to be tied, opening a car door, opening the gate, opening the garage door.
 
Would a trainer who went with the theory of "you can do everything but this" bother with "wait" or would it all be a hiss?
 
I'm being serious here, just in case anyone wondered.

That's a really great question, and I wonder if it relates to your great post next door in the other thread.
I have wondered about the use of words, too. This thread looks at using "no":http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=339928 .

I like that the click of a clicker means "yes, do that" even for so many different kinds of behaviors. I also like that "eh-eh" or "tsst" means "nope, that's not the right choice" even for so many different kinds of behaviors.

Here's what I have to share:
Dogs have shown us they can learn human words: "leave it", "wait", "around", etc.
Dogs have shown us they can learn gestures, touch, and sound: pointing, finger on the hip, "eh-eh", "tssst" and clicks

I like that "wait" is a specific cue for a really specific behavior. And sometimes I prefer to just stop moving so that my dog has to wonder about what's up ... "does she want me to sit?" "am I too far away?" I like to provide opportunities for my dog to problem solve. They say dogs don't generalize. But I suspect that teaching specifics, and also giving opportunities to problem solve, offers my dog more comprehensive learning.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

So you never trained your dog not to jump on guests?[]

What is the cue that you give her to stop performing this behavior?

Ok, no my dog then, "X" dog

I say "hey" and your personal favorite  [] "sshhh"

And you didnt answer one single of my multiple questions

I dont understand why you have to replace it with anything

 
So if your child was talking loudly in a library, would you repeatedly smack her (or Pssst! her, your choice) every time she did it,just to "stop what you don't want"? Or would you show her what the appropriate voice level was to speak at in the library?
 
Dogs do things for a reason - to get what they want. I have found that the easiest way to teach dogs that they can get what they want (when it's allowable), is to teach them HOW to do it appropriately. So if the dog wants attention from people, you teach it to sit, or four-on-the-floor, or to jump up if that's what you wish, or whatever you want.
 
Punishing the dog for jumping up may stop the jumping behaviour, but it may also make your dog hesitate to meet new people, or distrust new people, or stop caring about people altogether. It's not teaching the dog what it CAN do to get what it wants - attention from people. Once dogs know "how" they can easily get attention from people, they will repeat that appropriate behaviour. And I find it happens a LOT quicker that dogs figure it out than when dogs are punished and have to guess at what is the right thing to do all the time.