Independent Thinking - CM revisited

ORIGINAL: glenmar
 
espencer, I dont necessarily use eh eh as a correction.  I use it more as a preventative. 

 
You confuse me [&:], a few threads ago you said:
 

ORIGINAL: glenmar

My "eh eh" correction is totally different

 
Ok whatever, lets continue
 

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Because I pay very CLOSE attention to my dogs I am normally able to stop behavior I don't want before it starts.

 
Lets say is to prevent the behavior to escalate, what do you think the CM's "sssshhh" is for?, exactly for the same purpose [], it seems to me that somebody is using some techniques used by CM here []

quote:

ORIGINAL: glenmar

espencer, I dont necessarily use eh eh as a correction.  I use it more as a preventative. 


The key word would be "necessarily".  And also MORE AS.
 
My perception is that you are and have been trying to bait me.  Not gonna work, but it does continue to stir this particular pot and I would ask you to stop now.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

"Clicker fans are not that easy to convince otherwise" either

The difference is that most "clicker fans" came from the ranks of the traditional and/or dominance theory training fans.

Can you show me a reliable link where it says that? [8D]

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=163290&mpage=1&key=crossover]Try this one[/link]

Probably because the worst thing a confused clicker trained dog will do is give you a sitstaydownrolldancetouchspinhighfiveleaveit....all within 5 seconds.

"Clicker fans are not that easy to convince otherwise" either

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

"Clicker fans are not that easy to convince otherwise" either

The difference is that most "clicker fans" came from the ranks of the traditional and/or dominance theory training fans.

Can you show me a reliable link where it says that? [8D]

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=163290&mpage=1&key=crossover]Try this one[/link]

I think I counted 9 or 10 crossovers. Some I gave credit to because their parents were traditional in their training???

Lets say is to prevent the behavior to escalate, what do you think the CM's "sssshhh" is for?, exactly for the same purpose , it seems to me that somebody is using some techniques used by CM here

I could be wrong, but my understanding of the difference is that it seems Glenda can say "eh eh" and her dogs just stop in an instant and that's it where as CM says "ssst!" because he's continually trying to establish control and leadership over the dog.  I understood Glenda's example of "eh eh" to just be telling the dog to stop, not that she is trying to control their every move.  I believe she said earlier she doesn't really care what they are doing as long as they are not doing a certain number of things she won't allow them to do.  They can decide what to do and if they chose something bad she says "eh eh" where as Cesar seems to be controlling the dog's every move and would not even give a dog a chance to decide what it wants to do.  Again I could be wrong but that's the way I see it.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

The key word would be "necessarily".  And also MORE AS.

My perception is that you are and have been trying to bait me. 

The key words would be "your perception". I dont think i'm being rude at all with anybody but i think that you dont like the idea that you actually are doing something that CM does, i dont know what is wrong with that, dont worry we wont consider you a "Cesar's fan" if you dont want to []

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I could be wrong, but my understanding of the difference is that it seems Glenda can say "eh eh" and her dogs just stop in an instant and that's it where as CM says "ssst!" because he's continually trying to establish control and leadership over the dog.  I understood Glenda's example of "eh eh" to just be telling the dog to stop, not that she is trying to control their every move.  I believe she said earlier she doesn't really care what they are doing as long as they are not doing a certain number of things she won't allow them to do.  They can decide what to do and if they chose something bad she says "eh eh" where as Cesar seems to be controlling the dog's every move and would not even give a dog a chance to decide what it wants to do. 

That would be the wrong part, the "ssshhh" is exactly for what Glenda uses the "eh eh", CM uses it to tell the dog to stop but is not that he is traying to control every move, he also does not care if the dog starts drinking a margarita instead as long the dog is not doing what he was not allowed to do, the exactly same thing as Glenda, the difference is that Glenda (i believe) tells the dog what to do instead while CM does not care at all

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Try this one

Ok then you need to change your statement to "The difference is that most "clicker fans" in this forum came from the ranks of the traditional and/or dominance theory".  I could always say  "Most of the people think that CM techniques are the best for the dog" and give you a link from the CM forum

I really don't understand why it is automatically a "clicker vs. CM" thing.  Actually, I am not sure why this disscussion was even put in the clicker section--it is not a clicker/non-clicker issue. 

I actually use methods like claiming space (to be fair, that method is something I've used with horses and just kind of carried over to dogs), body blocking (that I will credit CM with, but I have actually observed Sally doing this to Jack), and verbal corrections (sorry, for this method I must give the credit to my mother-she was using this method with resounding success when "Cesar" was still just a salad). 

I also clicker train.  I wouldn't call myself a "clicker trainer" though.  To me, a clicker is just a tool--like a leash or a collar.  I might as well call myself a "leash trainer."   I think that there are some on this board that have the idea that people clicker train to prove some sort of point, or because they are over-emotional towards their dogs.  My reason for clicker training is simple--Sally enjoys it, I enjoys it, and it helps to perfect her obedience.  Everybody wins.  I don't see it, however, as an entire training methodology.  Therefore, I do not understand why it is put up against CM's or any toher methods.

If it MUST be an "us vs. them" thing (which is IMHO a rather silly way to look at training methods, but what do I know), it would be much more accurate to put it up against "All Positive Training" methods, rather then "clicker training."  I would not consider myself a 110% R+ trainer and I use a clicker in certain training situations.  I had a Rally-O class under an all positive trainer however, and she did not use clickers, nor did any of the other students, most of whom where all positive.

I hope that made sense--it's 1:30 am.........

he also does not care if the dog starts drinking a margarita instead as long the dog is not doing what he was not allowed to do, the exactly same thing as Glenda, the difference is that Glenda (i believe) tells the dog what to do instead while CM does not care at all

 
This is not the impression that I've gotten from reading and seeing.  That CM doesn't care at all.
 
But for whatever reason you seem to want to compare me to CM and find me "guilty" of doing the same things he does.  Whatever floats your boat.  You can bet your bottom dollar however that the methods I use did NOT come from CM.  I've been doing what I do for many years.  Does it somehow seem to validate your idol that I use methods that you find remotely similar to his?  Have at it....feel validated.    But, also know that I have never claimed to be a professional trainer and that I'm the self proclaimed expert at nothing.  Big points for "your team".  Some old lady who's been dealing with dogs all her life says "eh eh" to prevent a behavior.  Wow!!  Another CM follower.  Not so much.
 
My perception does matter here, but since you are primarily baiting ME and have apparently chosen to respond to my PM on the forum, I'll simply let Personal Champ make the determination.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I really don't understand why it is automatically a "clicker vs. CM" thing.  Actually, I am not sure why this disscussion was even put in the clicker section--it is not a clicker/non-clicker issue.... 

If it MUST be an "us vs. them" thing (which is IMHO a rather silly way to look at training methods, but what do I know), it would be much more accurate to put it up against "All Positive Training" methods, rather then "clicker training."  I would not consider myself a 110% R+ trainer and I use a clicker in certain training situations.  I had a Rally-O class under an all positive trainer however, and she did not use clickers, nor did any of the other students, most of whom where all positive.

I hope that made sense--it's 1:30 am.........

 
Yes SillySally, it does make sense to me.  I have a response that I am contemplating posting, all written up and waiting and it is along the lines of your thinking.  I am starting to believe it is not the passion and advocacy of one particular method over the other but the indvidual's personalities drive to win a discussion at all costs.  Being top dog is very important for some people.

DPU and Sillysally, I also agree.
 
A training method is just that - a method. Not one method is superior to another. A method's success is contingent on the user (person) and the reciepient (dog). Personality and experience of each is a huge factor to any method. What works for one, may not work for another. Pieces of one philosophy may work for you - great, use it. Get rid of the rest. There is no reason why everyone can't research different schools of thought and create their own "method". There is no need for a particular method to be better than another - other than humans' bizzare sense of having to be "right" all the time...

Oh, and espencer - you and glenmar should just agree to disagree and let byegones be byegones.

Works for me, Kelly.
 
Hey, ya think CM stole that idea from ME??

I really don't understand why it is automatically a "clicker vs. CM" thing. Actually, I am not sure why this disscussion was even put in the clicker section--it is not a clicker/non-clicker issue.

 
I agree wit hyou there... is that what is fanning the "us v them" flames?
 

  I am starting to believe it is not the passion and advocacy of one particular method over the other but the indvidual's personalities drive to win a discussion at all costs.  Being top dog is very important for some people.

 
You know, I think that is probably the most perceptive thing posted so far on this thread.
 
Back to the original topic, the main thing that bugs me about CM is his "title" - "The Dog Whisperer".  The Man Who Listens to Horses got called a "horse whisperer" and he brought traditional horse training methods FORWARD to something GENTLER (although I appreciate that in itself is up for debate [8|]) OTOH CM has taken dog training BACK to less gentle methods reminiscent of the 40's and 50's..... 
 
Please note I have NOT implied that CM uses "force" or that he brutalizes or harms dogs in any way.  I am just saying that, IMO, his techniques are less gentle than the more modern methods based on science and what have you.  I think a "whisperer" should be MORE gentle and MORE subtle, but that's just my opinion.
 
Go on, [sm=flamethrower.gif] me!

Hey, Glenda - you might be right!!!
 
All hail Glenda, the Original Whisperer! [sm=bow2.gif] LOL.